MS Word - what a mickey mouse pile of sh!t.

I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or illogical
piece of software.

Jay
Thu Jan 20 09:49:43 CST 2005

David wrote:
> I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or
> illogical piece of software.

Aw, c'mon... tell us what you really think!

What I really think is that you're a troll.

--
Regards,
Jay Freedman
Microsoft Word MVP FAQ: http://word.mvps.org

TF
Thu Jan 20 10:49:26 CST 2005

Hear! Hear! PLONK.

--
Terry Farrell - Word MVP
http://word.mvps.org/

"Amedee Van Gasse" <nzrqrr.ina.tnffr@rztebhc.or> wrote in message
news:xn0dxhh80hyxog001@msnews.microsoft.com...
: David shared this with us in microsoft.public.word.newusers:
:
: > I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or
: > illogical piece of software.
:
: Fortunately you have every right in the world to ignore it and use
: something else.
: Likewise people here have every right in the world to ignore *you* and
: read something else.
:
: G'day!
:
: *plonk*
:
: --
: Amedee Van Gasse using XanaNews 1.17.1.2
: If it has an "X" in the name, it must be Linux?
: Please don't thank me in advance. Thank me afterwards if it works or
: hit me in the face if it doesn't. ;-)

Treesy
Thu Jan 20 15:25:09 CST 2005

Is there supposed to be a question in here somewhere??

"David" wrote:

> I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or illogical
> piece of software.

Debutante
Thu Jan 20 18:35:58 CST 2005

The loser oops I mean "user" took the time to find a Microsoft Newsgroup,
Subscribe, and post a thread about something he doesn't like.

No one talks to you much, huh? Wonder why?

Hmmm...
"Treesy" <Treesy@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5D76D5B2-943A-46D5-BD78-BA1B593AF3B8@microsoft.com...
> Is there supposed to be a question in here somewhere??
>
> "David" wrote:
>
> > I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or
illogical
> > piece of software.

RWN
Thu Jan 20 21:27:13 CST 2005

Gosh, shows you how much I know.
I thought it worked really well (mind you, I had to read the directions).

--
Regards;
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"David" <David@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8EE59FB2-4F80-4D73-AD52-9727A8B9DA07@microsoft.com...
> I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or illogical
> piece of software.

Treesy
Fri Jan 21 13:09:02 CST 2005

Yeah, I guess the millions of us that use and love (okay, maybe not *love*)
are wrong. :)

"RWN" wrote:

> Gosh, shows you how much I know.
> I thought it worked really well (mind you, I had to read the directions).
>
> --
> Regards;
> Rob
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "David" <David@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:8EE59FB2-4F80-4D73-AD52-9727A8B9DA07@microsoft.com...
> > I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or illogical
> > piece of software.
>
>
>

Gordon
Sat Jan 22 03:20:54 CST 2005

Treesy wrote:
> Yeah, I guess the millions of us that use and love (okay, maybe not *love*)
> are wrong. :)
>
>

Millions of you use it because you're not given any other choice.

--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

HT
Sat Jan 22 09:24:31 CST 2005

There are other choices, Corel Wordperfect, Firefox, Safari, Lotus Notes..

Is there a point in here?

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:OEstDRGAFHA.1564@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Treesy wrote:
>> Yeah, I guess the millions of us that use and love (okay, maybe not
>> *love*) are wrong. :)
>>
>
> Millions of you use it because you're not given any other choice.
>
> --
> Registered Linux User no 240308
> Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
> counting!)
> gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
> to email me remove the obvious!

Suzanne
Sat Jan 22 09:38:07 CST 2005

I don't have to use Word, and in fact I moved to Word from other word
processing software (WordStar, XyWrite, WordPerfect). There are still some
features of those programs that I miss in Word. But by and large I feel I
understand the way Word works, and I'm comfortable with it. Most of the time
I just use it, some of the time I get frustrated with it, but more often I
am very pleased with it. I think most Word users have at best a love-hate
relationship with it, with love outweighing hate most of the time. I suspect
that's true with other programs as well (I certainly find it true of most of
the software I use--and not just software from Microsoft, either).

One of the things that most often makes the balance tip to the "love" side
for me is the extent to which Word can be customized to work the way I want.
I also love the fact that there is always uncharted territory to explore.
There are some features of Word that I may never need to use and
consequently never fully understand, but I am happy knowing that they are
there if I need them.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:OEstDRGAFHA.1564@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Treesy wrote:
> > Yeah, I guess the millions of us that use and love (okay, maybe not
*love*)
> > are wrong. :)
> >
> >
>
> Millions of you use it because you're not given any other choice.
>
> --
> Registered Linux User no 240308
> Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
> counting!)
> gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
> to email me remove the obvious!

Gordon
Sat Jan 22 12:29:31 CST 2005

HT wrote:
> There are other choices, Corel Wordperfect, Firefox, Safari, Lotus Notes..
>
> Is there a point in here?
>

Yes. For some reason, it seems that most organisations have gone for MS
Office. Why, I'm not quite sure......so that's why most people don't
have a choice. Private individuals certainly have a choice, but I should
think they are far outnumbered by those who use Office at work.


--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

Cindy
Tue Jan 25 10:42:50 CST 2005

Hi Amedee,

> OTOH, Gentoo has this system of USE-flags. Got a feature you don't
> need? Don't use it! Need it later? Activate the flag and recompile!
> Like this:
> app-office/msoffice -VBA -WIZARD -SPELL
>
> In theory, this would compile MS Office without VBA, that bloddy
> stoopid paperclip, and spellling checker. (find the joke)
>
Control Panel/Add-Remove Softare. Choose Office from the list. Click
Change. Find the options you want to enable/disable and set "Run from
my computer" or "Unavailable". OK. Comes to about the same amount of
work, I imagine...

> Of course, MS Office is NOT Open Source
>
That's right, it's not. Advantages and disadvantages. Advantages?
Someone in this thread mentioned they couldn't understand why so many
companies choose/chose the MS product over others on the market. One
reason is standardization (definitely NOT provided by open source).
IT departments want to have *control* over what's installed, and when
people call in with problems, have an idea what it could be. When
Open Source involved, that's more of an issue. As is having some
assurance that the source of the program will still be around in a
few years.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow
question or reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :-)

Greg
Tue Jan 25 14:02:11 CST 2005

Then my choices are work here with MSOffice or work someplace else.
There are always choices.

Gordon
Wed Jan 26 03:32:25 CST 2005

Greg wrote:
> Then my choices are work here with MSOffice or work someplace else.
> There are always choices.
>
That's not really the point though is it? My thoughts were *why* Office
has become so widespread. Take the comparison between Office and
Smartsuite. I find (as an Advanced Excel user) that there are some
things that Excel does which 123 doesn't, and there are some things that
123 does that Excel doesn't. (The ability to email PART of a worksheet
directly from that worksheet springs to mind). I find Outlook is
exceptionally good in the corporate environment. Smartsuite doesn't have
an email client - perhaps that may be one of the reasons why office is
used rather than Smartsuite? I don't know. I also find that Word is one
of the most infuriating and illogical WP applications I have ever used!
Yes it's very clever if you need to produce fancy formatting and graphic
documents - most users just need to write letters and memos, and for
that Word is far to complex and complicated and does some of the most
irritating things imaginable. Example. You want to indent the first line
of a paragraph. Logical action, place the cursor at the beginning of the
line and press tab. In Word? Oh no! That indents the WHOLE paragraph!
And that's the DEFAULT setting! And then you try to get it back to where
it was in the first place. A real waste of time.

--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

TF
Wed Jan 26 08:26:48 CST 2005

Example. You want to indent the first line
: of a paragraph. Logical action, place the cursor at the beginning of the
: line and press tab. In Word? Oh no! That indents the WHOLE paragraph!
: And that's the DEFAULT setting! And then you try to get it back to where
: it was in the first place. A real waste of time.


Gordon

What you have described above is NOT normal: it is because Normal Style has
been set to automatically update. If you use Format, Style and select
Normal, you will see an Automatically Update check box that should be
cleared.

What you say about just writting letters and memos is also nonsense. Just
writing a letter more than a couple of times means that you are constantly
typing in your address, entering the current date and a signature block,
etc. All these repetitive actions are wasting your precious time. Spend just
five minutes creating a personailised letter template and reap the rewards:
you will never have to add your address or the current date again.

Take some time and learn to use Word's powerful features: it will save you
loads of repetetive work and make your output consistent, error free and
faster.

--
Terry Farrell - Word MVP
http://word.mvps.org/

TF
Wed Jan 26 08:44:32 CST 2005

If an SME buys a server with open source OS (Linux), when something doesn't
work as expected, who is going to fix it? Who is going to patch the security
holes when they are discovered? Who is going to sort out the
incompatibilities? OTOH, if an SME buys a standard Microsoft solution, they
know how long it will supported by Microsoft and they know which products
are compatible and who will sort out the problems.

Buy a server from IBM and they will tell you the server is Linux compatible:
they will not sell you a server with Linux: but they will introduce you to a
company that will provide Linux. HP and Dell are the same: they let a third
party sell the Linux. But they all provide - and will support - an MS
Windows based server.

I work for a company that provides IT management and support for SMEs and I
can absolutely guarantee you that the company with 200 users spread over
several sites using a standard MS solution will spend a fraction on support
than a similar company that has splashed out on Linux, Novell, Notes and
other non-standard solutions. It is the cost of supporting these systems
that far out-strips the initial purchase cost. Open Source provides
absolutely no benefit to the average company: all they want is the IT to
support their work with minimum of interruption. A standard solution
provides just that.

Terry Farrell


"Amedee Van Gasse" <nzrqrr.ina.tnffr@rztebhc.or> wrote in message
news:xn0dxpn2w3stgi001@msnews.microsoft.com...
: Cindy M -WordMVP- shared this with us in
: microsoft.public.word.newusers:
:
: > Hi Amedee,
: >
: > > Of course, MS Office is NOT Open Source
: > >
: > That's right, it's not. Advantages and disadvantages. Advantages?
: > Someone in this thread mentioned they couldn't understand why so many
: > companies choose/chose the MS product over others on the market. One
: > reason is standardization (definitely NOT provided by open source).
:
: May I mention LSB here?
: http://www.linuxbase.org/
:
: > IT departments want to have control over what's installed, and when
: > people call in with problems, have an idea what it could be. When
: > Open Source involved, that's more of an issue.
:
: You have a point there, however one might argue that some non-MS
: systems give IT departments even more control and standardization. It
: all depends how well it is implemented. I'm sure you'll agree on the
: implementation argument.
:
: > As is having some assurance that the source of the program will still
: > be around in a few years.
:
: I do not agree. (or: I don't understand your point of view)
:
: Closed source software does NOT give you any assurance that the source
: will be around when the company that developed it goes out of business.
: I can name you dozens of excellent closed source programs that are lost
: for humanity forever, because the makers stopped.
: I know about escrow services, but these can be quite expensive, and the
: escrow system only works if you registered the software before Bad
: Things Happened.
:
: Open Source software OTOH will always be available as source - why,
: that's the very definition of Open Source. Your opinion seems to differ
: so could you please explain?
:
:
: --
: Amedee Van Gasse using XanaNews 1.17.1.2
: If it has an "X" in the name, it must be Linux?
: Please don't thank me in advance. Thank me afterwards if it works or
: hit me in the face if it doesn't. ;-)

Gordon
Wed Jan 26 08:41:57 CST 2005

TF wrote:
> Example. You want to indent the first line
> : of a paragraph. Logical action, place the cursor at the beginning of the
> : line and press tab. In Word? Oh no! That indents the WHOLE paragraph!
> : And that's the DEFAULT setting! And then you try to get it back to where
> : it was in the first place. A real waste of time.
>
>
> Gordon
>
> What you have described above is NOT normal: it is because Normal Style has
> been set to automatically update.
>If you use Format, Style and select
> Normal, you will see an Automatically Update check box that should be
> cleared.

But that's just my point - that is the the *DEFAULT* setting - unless
you "undo" it, that's how Word is installed. At least with Office XP.
You shouldn't have to "undo" a function that isn't needed and causes a
lot of irritation - those who DO need it should be able to enable it,
not the other way around.

>
> What you say about just writting letters and memos is also nonsense. Just
> writing a letter more than a couple of times means that you are constantly
> typing in your address, entering the current date and a signature block,
> etc. All these repetitive actions are wasting your precious time. Spend just
> five minutes creating a personailised letter template and reap the rewards:
> you will never have to add your address or the current date again.
>
> Take some time and learn to use Word's powerful features: it will save you
> loads of repetetive work and make your output consistent, error free and
> faster.

Don't quite know where you got that lot from in my post :-) - I can't
see any mention of that! Of *course* I use templates etc,and have done
in all the WP apps I've ever used, my point was that Word does some very
illogical and unintuitive things which other WP apps do NOT - and the
"average" user (and by that I *don't* mean secretaries, I mean those
people to whom Word is not something that they use sufficiently
frequently to warrant advanced training in all it's functions) finds
these blips frustrating.
>


--
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Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

Gordon
Wed Jan 26 08:43:51 CST 2005

Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

> Closed source software does NOT give you any assurance that the source
> will be around when the company that developed it goes out of business.

In fact it's happened with MS - the Outlook 2003 pst file format is NOT
backwards compatible!



--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

Gordon
Wed Jan 26 09:02:36 CST 2005

TF wrote:

> I work for a company that provides IT management and support for SMEs and I
> can absolutely guarantee you that the company with 200 users spread over
> several sites using a standard MS solution will spend a fraction on support
> than a similar company that has splashed out on Linux, Novell, Notes and
> other non-standard solutions.

Umm I wouldn't call Novell and Notes a "non-standard solution"!!! there
are still a VERY large number of organisations using both.

--
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Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
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Suzanne
Wed Jan 26 09:23:05 CST 2005

But Normal style is *not* set to update automatically by default. This
problem is caused by an add-in.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"TF" <terryfarrell%40%6d%73%6e%2ecom> wrote in message
news:uxt5OM7AFHA.1392@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Example. You want to indent the first line
> : of a paragraph. Logical action, place the cursor at the beginning of the
> : line and press tab. In Word? Oh no! That indents the WHOLE paragraph!
> : And that's the DEFAULT setting! And then you try to get it back to where
> : it was in the first place. A real waste of time.
>
>
> Gordon
>
> What you have described above is NOT normal: it is because Normal Style
has
> been set to automatically update. If you use Format, Style and select
> Normal, you will see an Automatically Update check box that should be
> cleared.
>
> What you say about just writting letters and memos is also nonsense. Just
> writing a letter more than a couple of times means that you are constantly
> typing in your address, entering the current date and a signature block,
> etc. All these repetitive actions are wasting your precious time. Spend
just
> five minutes creating a personailised letter template and reap the
rewards:
> you will never have to add your address or the current date again.
>
> Take some time and learn to use Word's powerful features: it will save you
> loads of repetetive work and make your output consistent, error free and
> faster.
>
> --
> Terry Farrell - Word MVP
> http://word.mvps.org/
>
>

Suzanne
Wed Jan 26 09:21:49 CST 2005

I've been using Word for so long that of course I've customized it a good
bit, but whenever I get a new computer, I start from scratch with a clean
copy of Office, and I don't believe that indenting when you press Tab is the
default setting. If it were, why would we have so many questions in these
NGs asking how to get Word to do it? It would be easy enough to check this
by starting Word with the /a switch, and I'll do that when I get time.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:OYwmMq4AFHA.4072@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Greg wrote:
> > Then my choices are work here with MSOffice or work someplace else.
> > There are always choices.
> >
> That's not really the point though is it? My thoughts were *why* Office
> has become so widespread. Take the comparison between Office and
> Smartsuite. I find (as an Advanced Excel user) that there are some
> things that Excel does which 123 doesn't, and there are some things that
> 123 does that Excel doesn't. (The ability to email PART of a worksheet
> directly from that worksheet springs to mind). I find Outlook is
> exceptionally good in the corporate environment. Smartsuite doesn't have
> an email client - perhaps that may be one of the reasons why office is
> used rather than Smartsuite? I don't know. I also find that Word is one
> of the most infuriating and illogical WP applications I have ever used!
> Yes it's very clever if you need to produce fancy formatting and graphic
> documents - most users just need to write letters and memos, and for
> that Word is far to complex and complicated and does some of the most
> irritating things imaginable. Example. You want to indent the first line
> of a paragraph. Logical action, place the cursor at the beginning of the
> line and press tab. In Word? Oh no! That indents the WHOLE paragraph!
> And that's the DEFAULT setting! And then you try to get it back to where
> it was in the first place. A real waste of time.
>
> --
> Registered Linux User no 240308
> Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
> counting!)
> gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
> to email me remove the obvious!

Gordon
Wed Jan 26 09:27:19 CST 2005

Suzanne S. Barnhill wrote:
> I've been using Word for so long that of course I've customized it a good
> bit, but whenever I get a new computer, I start from scratch with a clean
> copy of Office, and I don't believe that indenting when you press Tab

well I've gone from office 97 through office 2000 and am now on office
XP, and currently, that is the default setting when I first installed
Office XP. (I've now turned it off, but it was indeed turned on by
default when the installation had completed)


--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

TF
Wed Jan 26 11:31:56 CST 2005

Gordon

Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default. Something else
(incompatible or malicious) on your computer has done that.

I agree with some of your points about the 'automation'. We have discussed
this with the developers - but there seems to be a bit of a Catch22 point
here. If the install has the automation turned off by default, then the
average user will never know about it and never reap its benefit. OTOH,
because a new user doesn't know what automation is active, all they see is
strange and unexpected affects. The 'turn on by default' party has won the
day!

Terry

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:upHWKX7AFHA.2196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
: TF wrote:
: > Example. You want to indent the first line
: > : of a paragraph. Logical action, place the cursor at the beginning of
the
: > : line and press tab. In Word? Oh no! That indents the WHOLE paragraph!
: > : And that's the DEFAULT setting! And then you try to get it back to
where
: > : it was in the first place. A real waste of time.
: >
: >
: > Gordon
: >
: > What you have described above is NOT normal: it is because Normal Style
has
: > been set to automatically update.
: >If you use Format, Style and select
: > Normal, you will see an Automatically Update check box that should be
: > cleared.
:
: But that's just my point - that is the the *DEFAULT* setting - unless
: you "undo" it, that's how Word is installed. At least with Office XP.
: You shouldn't have to "undo" a function that isn't needed and causes a
: lot of irritation - those who DO need it should be able to enable it,
: not the other way around.
:
: >
: > What you say about just writting letters and memos is also nonsense.
Just
: > writing a letter more than a couple of times means that you are
constantly
: > typing in your address, entering the current date and a signature block,
: > etc. All these repetitive actions are wasting your precious time. Spend
just
: > five minutes creating a personailised letter template and reap the
rewards:
: > you will never have to add your address or the current date again.
: >
: > Take some time and learn to use Word's powerful features: it will save
you
: > loads of repetetive work and make your output consistent, error free and
: > faster.
:
: Don't quite know where you got that lot from in my post :-) - I can't
: see any mention of that! Of *course* I use templates etc,and have done
: in all the WP apps I've ever used, my point was that Word does some very
: illogical and unintuitive things which other WP apps do NOT - and the
: "average" user (and by that I *don't* mean secretaries, I mean those
: people to whom Word is not something that they use sufficiently
: frequently to warrant advanced training in all it's functions) finds
: these blips frustrating.
: >
:
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

TF
Wed Jan 26 11:38:04 CST 2005

Gordon

I have to agree with you: I'm sure that the 'Tab' setting is one of those on
by default. I don't like it and turn it off immediately I install (along
with some of the other automations, the periscope, Keep Track of Formatting,
Prompt to Update Style and loads of others).

Terry

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:%23CNFgw7AFHA.1992@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
: Suzanne S. Barnhill wrote:
: > I've been using Word for so long that of course I've customized it a
good
: > bit, but whenever I get a new computer, I start from scratch with a
clean
: > copy of Office, and I don't believe that indenting when you press Tab
:
: well I've gone from office 97 through office 2000 and am now on office
: XP, and currently, that is the default setting when I first installed
: Office XP. (I've now turned it off, but it was indeed turned on by
: default when the installation had completed)
:
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

TF
Wed Jan 26 11:39:35 CST 2005

True. It was unfair to call them non-standard. 'Alternative' would have been
a better choice. But have you listened to any Notes users!

Terry

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:OZtWsi7AFHA.1992@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
: TF wrote:
:
: > I work for a company that provides IT management and support for SMEs
and I
: > can absolutely guarantee you that the company with 200 users spread over
: > several sites using a standard MS solution will spend a fraction on
support
: > than a similar company that has splashed out on Linux, Novell, Notes and
: > other non-standard solutions.
:
: Umm I wouldn't call Novell and Notes a "non-standard solution"!!! there
: are still a VERY large number of organisations using both.
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

Gordon
Wed Jan 26 11:36:25 CST 2005

TF wrote:
> Gordon
>
> Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default. Something else
> (incompatible or malicious) on your computer has done that.

A fresh install of office XP on a fresh XP install (before internet
connection) installed it turned on!


--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

Gordon
Wed Jan 26 12:03:38 CST 2005

TF wrote:
> True. It was unfair to call them non-standard. 'Alternative' would have been
> a better choice. But have you listened to any Notes users!

No but I was at one company that used Groupwise! Awful!


--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

TF
Wed Jan 26 14:41:33 CST 2005

That was installed on freshly formatted disk? No chance that there was a
legacy normal.dot on it? I've never seen that happen before. What version of
Office is it: OEM, retail or licensed media?

Terry

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:%23sxQp48AFHA.1452@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
: TF wrote:
: > Gordon
: >
: > Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default. Something
else
: > (incompatible or malicious) on your computer has done that.
:
: A fresh install of office XP on a fresh XP install (before internet
: connection) installed it turned on!
:
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

TF
Wed Jan 26 14:57:04 CST 2005

A couple of our customers use Groupwise: shudder!

Terry

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:u9Mn2H9AFHA.2676@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
: TF wrote:
: > True. It was unfair to call them non-standard. 'Alternative' would have
been
: > a better choice. But have you listened to any Notes users!
:
: No but I was at one company that used Groupwise! Awful!
:
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

Gordon
Wed Jan 26 15:11:10 CST 2005

TF wrote:
> That was installed on freshly formatted disk? No chance that there was a
> legacy normal.dot on it? I've never seen that happen before. What version of
> Office is it: OEM, retail or licensed media?
>

It was a freshly formatted HDD. It's a promotional copy, that I got at a
seminar, and I've slipstreamed SP2 into it.

--
Registered Linux User no 240308
Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
counting!)
gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
to email me remove the obvious!

TF
Thu Jan 27 15:37:42 CST 2005

Gordon

Unfortunately, it is unlikely that I will ever have a 'fresh' system that
needs Office XP install, so it unlikely that I can corroborate if this is
just a problem with the version on that disk or if it an Office XP-wide
problem. It certainly is an undesirable install though.

Terry

"Gordon" <gordonbp1@yahoo.co.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:uS5spw%23AFHA.3840@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
: TF wrote:
: > That was installed on freshly formatted disk? No chance that there was a
: > legacy normal.dot on it? I've never seen that happen before. What
version of
: > Office is it: OEM, retail or licensed media?
: >
:
: It was a freshly formatted HDD. It's a promotional copy, that I got at a
: seminar, and I've slipstreamed SP2 into it.
:
: --
: Registered Linux User no 240308
: Just waiting for Broadband to complete the conversion!(4 weeks and
: counting!)
: gordonATgbpcomputingDOTcoDOTuk
: to email me remove the obvious!

Cindy
Tue Feb 01 05:36:54 CST 2005

Hi Gordon,

> > Closed source software does NOT give you any assurance that the source
> > will be around when the company that developed it goes out of business.
>
> In fact it's happened with MS - the Outlook 2003 pst file format is NOT
> backwards compatible!
>
No, but Outlook 2003 still supports the older file format, so that you can
bring *.pst files forwards (and continue to use them with older versions,
or convert them).

File format compatibility has always been a big discussion, for any
software (not just MS). I remember the uproar when Word changed file
formats, going from 6.0 to 97. (There was also a change from 2.0 to 6.0,
but somehow, that didn't throw as many waves; maybe because 6.0 was so
clearly an improvement.) The thing is, if a program is going to develop,
and be able to do new things, sometimes internal structures MUST change.
I've heard discussions among MS people about: should/can we go forward,
will it break backwards compatibility, and is it worth it.

I suppose we react more strongly / are more sensitized to this with
Office-type products because that's where we're most likely to exchange
files with other people. Used to be, the biggest concern was whether "the
other guy" could open my WP/AmiPro/Word/QuattroPro/1-2-3/Excel file. Now
it's more a version, rather than a product question.

And BTW, when discussing MS vs. other products, this is another reason why
big companies choose MS: highest chances for compatibility when exchanging
files.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :-)

Cindy
Tue Feb 01 05:36:53 CST 2005

> Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default.
>
Actually, Terry, it is in Word 2002 (XP). Drove me (and
everyone else) absolutely nutty until we figured it out. It
was THE FAQ when the version hit the markets.

-- Cindy

Cindy
Tue Feb 01 05:36:55 CST 2005

Hi Amedee,

> however one might argue that some non-MS
> systems give IT departments even more control and standardization. It
> all depends how well it is implemented. I'm sure you'll agree on the
> implementation argument.
>
Certainly. Then there's also the maintainance aspect, that Terry
pointed out. That's mostly what I was thinking about. Along with being
able to exchange files with other people (see my reply to Gordon).

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question
or reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :-)

Suzanne
Tue Feb 01 08:27:39 CST 2005

I'm curious as to why I didn't experience it, then. I bought a new computer
with Office XP installed. I set it up from scratch (didn't import an old
Normal.dot), and I don't recall ever having to change this setting. My
charmed life again, I guess! <g>

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Cindy M -WordMVP-" <C.Meister-C@hispeed.ch> wrote in message
news:VA.0000a6ff.00df642b@speedy...
> > Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default.
> >
> Actually, Terry, it is in Word 2002 (XP). Drove me (and
> everyone else) absolutely nutty until we figured it out. It
> was THE FAQ when the version hit the markets.
>
> -- Cindy
>

TF
Tue Feb 01 08:38:10 CST 2005

Cindy

I take your word for it: XP is history now!

Terry

"Cindy M -WordMVP-" <C.Meister-C@hispeed.ch> wrote in message
news:VA.0000a6ff.00df642b@speedy...
:> Normal style is not set to Automatically update by default.
: >
: Actually, Terry, it is in Word 2002 (XP). Drove me (and
: everyone else) absolutely nutty until we figured it out. It
: was THE FAQ when the version hit the markets.
:
: -- Cindy
:

Cindy
Fri Feb 04 04:39:56 CST 2005

Hi Amedee,

> Or maybe because there were less computer users then than there
are now.
>
Point <g> Also, support questions were "free" (because we paid a
LOT more for the apps)

> What Microsoft lacks, is communication.
> If they communicated every file format combatability as they
> communicated the change for example from VB6 to VB.NET, this
world
> would be a very happy place.
>
You're right about the communication, no question. (Whether that
would make the world a happier place is still open for debate.)

> > Used to be, the biggest concern was whether "the other guy"
could open
> > my WP/AmiPro/Word/QuattroPro/1-2-3/Excel file. Now it's more a
> > version, rather than a product question.
>
> Honestly, what's the difference? Versions or products, if files
are
> combatable you are stuck.
>
Only difference is what we're primarily concerned about / complain
about. As you say, this changes as time goes on. (FWIW, I was a
died-in-the-wool WP person before 1992. And I, too, recall the
program I was using prior to that, but without any nostalgia
<ugh>!)

> but if future office apps will be able to
> open the letters I write today.
>
I seem to recall even the U.S. government running into this
problem. And people ask why we still haven't reached the "paperless
office" point? Even if one would back up the text content as plain
text files, who can ensure that the *medium* can still be read 10
years down the line...

> Let's start a flame war about software patents, shall we? This IS
> relevant, because there are quite a few in MS Office.
>
I don't like flamewars :-) But a good discussion is always fun.
Although software patents aren't something I know very much about
(gene-patenting is a pet peeve of mine, however).

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8
2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow
question or reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :-)

Cindy
Fri Feb 04 04:39:57 CST 2005

Hi Amedee,

> > Along with being able to exchange files with other people
> > (see my reply to Gordon).
>
> ObRant: I don't see a problem there. I can exchange files with other
> people, even though I don't have any Microsoft product on my home pc at
> all.
>
Ah, well. I remember working for a large corporation that received docs
and spreadsheets in so many different file formats. And it was always a
fight about being able to open AND print them, and still have them the
way the originals looked. We wasted more time on that... If everyone has
the same, the amount of time/work/money involved is reduced considerably.

Not that I'm saying Word is really good at passing along something that
will look exactly the same on the recipient's machine/printer. NOT!!! But
that's the theory behind many of the decisions.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :-)

Cindy
Sat Feb 05 09:13:42 CST 2005

Hi Suzanne,

> I'm curious as to why I didn't experience it, then. I bought a new computer
> with Office XP installed.
>
Could be that an later SP is part of that installation? I wouldn't be
surprised if MS changed that default setting in an SP, somewhere down the
line... I don't KNOW this is the case, but they have to have become as tired
of the support questions as we did.

Cindy Meister
INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
http://www.word.mvps.org

This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :-)

Suzanne
Sat Feb 05 10:56:28 CST 2005

I don't think an SP is involved because when I bought my computer Office XP
was brand-new--so new that Dell was still offering a choice of Office 2000
or XP (and I selected 2000 but got XP anyway, which I was annoyed about
initially but later grateful for).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org
Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

"Cindy M -WordMVP-" <C.Meister-C@hispeed.ch> wrote in message
news:VA.0000a735.003eba59@speedy...
> Hi Suzanne,
>
> > I'm curious as to why I didn't experience it, then. I bought a new
computer
> > with Office XP installed.
> >
> Could be that an later SP is part of that installation? I wouldn't be
> surprised if MS changed that default setting in an SP, somewhere down the
> line... I don't KNOW this is the case, but they have to have become as
tired
> of the support questions as we did.
>
> Cindy Meister
> INTER-Solutions, Switzerland
> http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister (last update Jun 8 2004)
> http://www.word.mvps.org
>
> This reply is posted in the Newsgroup; please post any follow question or
> reply in the newsgroup and not by e-mail :-)
>

andalucia
Thu Sep 01 12:08:07 CDT 2005

Unfortunately Microsoft has made it impossible to ignore it and use something
else. I lived in Ireland for a year, where nothing BUT the ubiquitous
microsoft word was available on office computers. Although I save all my
documents in rtf, upon my return I discovered I CAN'T convert them back to
wordperfect. THEY MUST BE OPENED IN WORD. And now Microsoft has made it
impossible to complain to anyone who can do anything about it. They set up
some discussion group to allow us to vent our spleen, but never accomplish
anything substantive. They don't provide a single way for me to ask a simple
question about how I can convert my documents back to WP, thus forcing me to
use their substandard product. It should be illegal.

"TF" wrote:

> Hear! Hear! PLONK.
>
> --
> Terry Farrell - Word MVP
> http://word.mvps.org/
>
> "Amedee Van Gasse" <nzrqrr.ina.tnffr@rztebhc.or> wrote in message
> news:xn0dxhh80hyxog001@msnews.microsoft.com...
> : David shared this with us in microsoft.public.word.newusers:
> :
> : > I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or
> : > illogical piece of software.
> :
> : Fortunately you have every right in the world to ignore it and use
> : something else.
> : Likewise people here have every right in the world to ignore *you* and
> : read something else.
> :
> : G'day!
> :
> : *plonk*
> :
> : --
> : Amedee Van Gasse using XanaNews 1.17.1.2
> : If it has an "X" in the name, it must be Linux?
> : Please don't thank me in advance. Thank me afterwards if it works or
> : hit me in the face if it doesn't. ;-)
>
>
>

Daiya
Thu Sep 01 12:33:28 CDT 2005

Though I've never used WordPerfect, I'm quite sure that you can tell it to
open RTF documents. I think you are doing something wrong. Try using File
| Open from inside WP instead of double-clicking.


On 9/1/05 10:08 AM, "andalucia" wrote:

> Unfortunately Microsoft has made it impossible to ignore it and use something
> else. I lived in Ireland for a year, where nothing BUT the ubiquitous
> microsoft word was available on office computers. Although I save all my
> documents in rtf, upon my return I discovered I CAN'T convert them back to
> wordperfect. THEY MUST BE OPENED IN WORD. And now Microsoft has made it
> impossible to complain to anyone who can do anything about it. They set up
> some discussion group to allow us to vent our spleen, but never accomplish
> anything substantive. They don't provide a single way for me to ask a simple
> question about how I can convert my documents back to WP, thus forcing me to
> use their substandard product. It should be illegal.
>

Tom
Thu Sep 01 13:35:41 CDT 2005

Would you please let us know the details of how you are trying to open the
files in Word Perfect and how you save them in Word.

Word will save to Word Perfect 5 for Windows format. Word Perfect will
open Word files. There is something wrong with what you are doing or with
your particular configuration.

We can't help unless we have details.

Consider posting this to the conversion news group.

NEWS://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.word.conversions

Corel's news groups about Word Perfect are available through their web
site
http://www.corel.com

http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel3/Section/Display&sid=1047024315119&gid=1047024361372

and by NNTP.
NEWS://cnews.corel.com/corel.WordPerfect12
is for, wait for it, Word Perfect 12.

Microsoft contact information is here.
http://support.microsoft.com/contactus/?ws=mscom


Tom
MSMVP
Windows Shell/User


"andalucia" <andalucia@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:7D015337-63EE-471E-99AA-00CE995528DF@microsoft.com...
: Unfortunately Microsoft has made it impossible to ignore it and use
something
: else. I lived in Ireland for a year, where nothing BUT the ubiquitous
: microsoft word was available on office computers. Although I save all my
: documents in rtf, upon my return I discovered I CAN'T convert them back
to
: wordperfect. THEY MUST BE OPENED IN WORD. And now Microsoft has made it
: impossible to complain to anyone who can do anything about it. They set
up
: some discussion group to allow us to vent our spleen, but never
accomplish
: anything substantive. They don't provide a single way for me to ask a
simple
: question about how I can convert my documents back to WP, thus forcing
me to
: use their substandard product. It should be illegal.
:
: "TF" wrote:
:
: > Hear! Hear! PLONK.
: >
: > --
: > Terry Farrell - Word MVP
: > http://word.mvps.org/
: >
: > "Amedee Van Gasse" <nzrqrr.ina.tnffr@rztebhc.or> wrote in message
: > news:xn0dxhh80hyxog001@msnews.microsoft.com...
: > : David shared this with us in microsoft.public.word.newusers:
: > :
: > : > I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or
: > : > illogical piece of software.
: > :
: > : Fortunately you have every right in the world to ignore it and use
: > : something else.
: > : Likewise people here have every right in the world to ignore *you*
and
: > : read something else.
: > :
: > : G'day!
: > :
: > : *plonk*
: > :
: > : --
: > : Amedee Van Gasse using XanaNews 1.17.1.2
: > : If it has an "X" in the name, it must be Linux?
: > : Please don't thank me in advance. Thank me afterwards if it works or
: > : hit me in the face if it doesn't. ;-)
: >
: >
: >

CyberTaz
Fri Sep 02 00:24:16 CDT 2005




On 9/1/05 1:08 PM, in article
7D015337-63EE-471E-99AA-00CE995528DF@microsoft.com, "andalucia"
<andalucia@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

> THEY MUST BE OPENED IN WORD

Simply _not_ true. RTF is a universal file format which can be opened by
virtually any text-based application. If WordPerfect _can't_ open your RTF
files perhaps your ire would better be directed toward it.

Regards |:>)

GR
Fri Sep 02 12:23:17 CDT 2005

My version of WordPerfect (10) opens *.rtf files. Yours might too.
GR



"andalucia" <andalucia@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:7D015337-63EE-471E-99AA-00CE995528DF@microsoft.com...
> Unfortunately Microsoft has made it impossible to ignore it and use
> something
> else. I lived in Ireland for a year, where nothing BUT the ubiquitous
> microsoft word was available on office computers. Although I save all my
> documents in rtf, upon my return I discovered I CAN'T convert them back to
> wordperfect. THEY MUST BE OPENED IN WORD. And now Microsoft has made it
> impossible to complain to anyone who can do anything about it. They set up
> some discussion group to allow us to vent our spleen, but never accomplish
> anything substantive. They don't provide a single way for me to ask a
> simple
> question about how I can convert my documents back to WP, thus forcing me
> to
> use their substandard product. It should be illegal.
>
> "TF" wrote:
>
>> Hear! Hear! PLONK.
>>
>> --
>> Terry Farrell - Word MVP
>> http://word.mvps.org/
>>
>> "Amedee Van Gasse" <nzrqrr.ina.tnffr@rztebhc.or> wrote in message
>> news:xn0dxhh80hyxog001@msnews.microsoft.com...
>> : David shared this with us in microsoft.public.word.newusers:
>> :
>> : > I have never come across such an ill thought out, unintuitive or
>> : > illogical piece of software.
>> :
>> : Fortunately you have every right in the world to ignore it and use
>> : something else.
>> : Likewise people here have every right in the world to ignore *you* and
>> : read something else.
>> :
>> : G'day!
>> :
>> : *plonk*
>> :
>> : --
>> : Amedee Van Gasse using XanaNews 1.17.1.2
>> : If it has an "X" in the name, it must be Linux?
>> : Please don't thank me in advance. Thank me afterwards if it works or
>> : hit me in the face if it doesn't. ;-)
>>
>>
>>