Hi all,

SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP using
exchange for mail.

Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being redirected
to a Banking Phishing website.
They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing it
looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any ideas on
how to approach this to find fix it?

Thanks

Re: Rogue PHP file by Leythos

Leythos
Fri Jun 27 19:00:42 PDT 2008

In article <48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
ffarero@cfl.rr.com says...
> Hi all,
>
> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP using
> exchange for mail.
>
> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being redirected
> to a Banking Phishing website.
> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing it
> looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any ideas on
> how to approach this to find fix it?

First, a WRT anything is not a firewall, it's just a cheap NAT router
and has all the standard exploits of being CHEAP. Yea, it's my soapbox,
but I can't imagine using such a cheap residential grade device to
protect anything of any value for a business.

So, if the mail.xxx.com address was accepting HTTP, well, you've got a
problem, as HTTP inbound should not be ported through the WRT by any
PORT FORWARDING setup and your WRT should not have remote management
enabled either, and certainly NOT UPnP either.

If someone hacked their DNS service, outside the company, then they just
need to change the password and change their DNS pointers back.

http://mail.company.com should not be valid inbound from the net, so
either the router is misconfigured it's been hacked.

Replace the cheap router with a firewall of your choice - WatchGuard,
CISCO, Fortinet, Juniper.....

--
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Rogue PHP file by Susan

Susan
Fri Jun 27 19:17:06 PDT 2008

Call 1-866-pcsafety

You need to have a Windows Online Forensic Analysis done on this system.

Press 2 for support
Then 2 for Server

Ping me directly at sbradcpa-at-pacbell.net and keep me in the loop to
ensure Microsoft handles this properly.
It will be a free support call for this server.

Frank wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP using
> exchange for mail.
>
> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being redirected
> to a Banking Phishing website.
> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing it
> looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any ideas on
> how to approach this to find fix it?
>
> Thanks
>
>

Re: Rogue PHP file by Cliff

Cliff
Fri Jun 27 20:32:58 PDT 2008

I know Susan and Leythos have already replied, but since I obviously am
reading things very differently from them, I figure I should comment:

1) Am I to assume that this is not your server? I mention that a "new
client" called you. Forgive me for being blunt, but if you are in the
business of providing IT/technical services and charge for them, you should
not be coming here asking for *basic* knowledge on how to approach
troubleshooting this problem.

2) Your post, unfortunately, is particularly vague on the details that, even
if #1 didn't apploy, would allow us to help you. For example, what security
is gained by mail.xxxxxxxx.com. If the server is on the net then hackers
will find it by portscans. The x's only prevent *us* from trying legitimate
tests to see what is going on.

3) They *GOT* a call from a security firm? That alone sounds fishy to me,
or very basic social engineering. I know if I got a call, out of the blue,
from somebody claiming to be a security company in California that said my
site was compromised, I wouldn't trust 'em. I'd want proof. I'd be
double-checking the site myself. I'd be checking my logs. And then, IF I
felt there was cause, I'd order up some forensics. But really. People call
security firms for help/advice/service, not the other way around.

With all of that said, Leythos is right. A WRG class device is not a
business class device. Although he went on a tangent discussing it as a
firewall (nowhere in your post did I see you claim it was) I'd go so far as
to say, even as a router, it just doesn't hold up weight for incoming
connections. Residential devices are designed to handle primarily outgoing
traffic.

And, if you feel, or find, or decide, that the server is indeed compromised
(that PHP file got put there somehow) then her contact info is the most
appropriate course of action. Bank fraud is a federal crime and getting it
properly reported and investigated IS important...even if my above point
made me seem skeptical.

-Cliff

"Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> Hi all,
>
> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP using
> exchange for mail.
>
> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being redirected
> to a Banking Phishing website.
> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing it
> looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any ideas on
> how to approach this to find fix it?
>
> Thanks
>


Re: Rogue PHP file by Susan

Susan
Fri Jun 27 22:25:00 PDT 2008

Keeping in mind that an online forensic analysis will make the system
unable to be used in a legal manner as the tool is run on the live system.

If as Cliff says you truly need to do some legal action, KrollOntrack or
similar firm would be the way to go.

Cliff Galiher wrote:
> I know Susan and Leythos have already replied, but since I obviously am
> reading things very differently from them, I figure I should comment:
>
> 1) Am I to assume that this is not your server? I mention that a "new
> client" called you. Forgive me for being blunt, but if you are in the
> business of providing IT/technical services and charge for them, you
> should not be coming here asking for *basic* knowledge on how to
> approach troubleshooting this problem.
>
> 2) Your post, unfortunately, is particularly vague on the details that,
> even if #1 didn't apploy, would allow us to help you. For example, what
> security is gained by mail.xxxxxxxx.com. If the server is on the net
> then hackers will find it by portscans. The x's only prevent *us* from
> trying legitimate tests to see what is going on.
>
> 3) They *GOT* a call from a security firm? That alone sounds fishy to
> me, or very basic social engineering. I know if I got a call, out of
> the blue, from somebody claiming to be a security company in California
> that said my site was compromised, I wouldn't trust 'em. I'd want
> proof. I'd be double-checking the site myself. I'd be checking my
> logs. And then, IF I felt there was cause, I'd order up some
> forensics. But really. People call security firms for
> help/advice/service, not the other way around.
>
> With all of that said, Leythos is right. A WRG class device is not a
> business class device. Although he went on a tangent discussing it as a
> firewall (nowhere in your post did I see you claim it was) I'd go so far
> as to say, even as a router, it just doesn't hold up weight for incoming
> connections. Residential devices are designed to handle primarily
> outgoing traffic.
>
> And, if you feel, or find, or decide, that the server is indeed
> compromised (that PHP file got put there somehow) then her contact info
> is the most appropriate course of action. Bank fraud is a federal crime
> and getting it properly reported and investigated IS important...even if
> my above point made me seem skeptical.
>
> -Cliff
>
> "Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP
>> using exchange for mail.
>>
>> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a
>> new client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being
>> redirected to a Banking Phishing website.
>> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing
>> it looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any
>> ideas on how to approach this to find fix it?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>

Re: Rogue PHP file by Frank

Frank
Sat Jun 28 03:25:09 PDT 2008

Thanks to everyone for the valuable info on this. I always spec. a Wachguard
and insist it be used. So I have never had this problem before.
As for the security firm calling, (PMV Technologies LLC) I talked last night
to a rep. after posting this message and he gave me the IP address of the
mail server which is mail.attachmentsales.com. The Rep. did not request any
info from the client except to state that they had tracked the Phishing site
to the mail.attachmentsales.com IP address and requested we look into it
When I went to that site I got a blank web page. I should see a "Unable to
Connect" Message.
"Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> Hi all,
>
> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP using
> exchange for mail.
>
> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being redirected
> to a Banking Phishing website.
> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing it
> looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any ideas on
> how to approach this to find fix it?
>
> Thanks
>



Re: Rogue PHP file by Leythos

Leythos
Sat Jun 28 06:26:01 PDT 2008

In article <48661190$0$18083$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
ffarero@cfl.rr.com says...
> Thanks to everyone for the valuable info on this. I always spec. a Wachguard
> and insist it be used. So I have never had this problem before.
> As for the security firm calling, (PMV Technologies LLC) I talked last night
> to a rep. after posting this message and he gave me the IP address of the
> mail server which is mail.attachmentsales.com. The Rep. did not request any
> info from the client except to state that they had tracked the Phishing site
> to the mail.attachmentsales.com IP address and requested we look into it
> When I went to that site I got a blank web page. I should see a "Unable to
> Connect" Message.

And you've still not presented us with much info:

Where is that website hosted?

Is that website part of the customers network?

If hosted internally, why do they allow HTTP access to their network?

etc...

--
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Rogue PHP file by Cliff

Cliff
Sat Jun 28 07:04:46 PDT 2008

Leythos is right, we still need more info.

But initially, what I can tell you, is that the nameservers listed by the
registrar are NOT the same as the nameservers listed in the SOA. This could
indicated DNS hijacking and NOT a compromised server. Additionally, when I
checked for mail.attachmentsales.com, it is indeed listening on port 80, but
simply replying with an HTTP 304 (not changed.) No redirecting is
'currently' going on, but again...if DNS is compromised, I may not even be
connecting to the right IP for mail.attachmentsales.com. It is also
unclear of mail.attachmentsales.com *should* be listening on port 80. An SBS
box with one public IP, for example, may legitimately be listening on port
80 for other services offered by that server, for example. We just need
more info to help you further.

And again, I'll stress, if this is something you are going to be doing as a
business, you *need* to be better prepareed to handle these types of
requests. The steps I took to detect the nameserver mismatch was not
involved or advanced in an way. It was basic troubleshooting...

-Cliff

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:1214666644_158023@news.usenet.com...
> In article <48661190$0$18083$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>,
> ffarero@cfl.rr.com says...
>> Thanks to everyone for the valuable info on this. I always spec. a
>> Wachguard
>> and insist it be used. So I have never had this problem before.
>> As for the security firm calling, (PMV Technologies LLC) I talked last
>> night
>> to a rep. after posting this message and he gave me the IP address of the
>> mail server which is mail.attachmentsales.com. The Rep. did not request
>> any
>> info from the client except to state that they had tracked the Phishing
>> site
>> to the mail.attachmentsales.com IP address and requested we look into it
>> When I went to that site I got a blank web page. I should see a "Unable
>> to
>> Connect" Message.
>
> And you've still not presented us with much info:
>
> Where is that website hosted?
>
> Is that website part of the customers network?
>
> If hosted internally, why do they allow HTTP access to their network?
>
> etc...
>
> --
> - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
> - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
> drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)


Re: Rogue PHP file by SuperGumby

SuperGumby
Sat Jun 28 07:45:25 PDT 2008

G'day Frank,

I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil' that
you will get from Leythos.

I have the benefit of having seen your later post but, so far, I'm not
really sure whether the internet name for your SBS is _actually_
mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com. There's issues about bad/poisoned DNS that would need
to be investigated. SBS would need to be _pretty thoroughly 'owned'_ before
'anything.php' comes into play.

_IF_ the server has been compromised, and so far I'm not really sure it has,
you should be firstly looking to PCSafety, as Susan has suggested, and then
considering _HOW_ this happened and the _cost_ of addressing the issue (on
your primary DC, which you should now trust _NOTHING_ from), vs externally
hosting your public (www) domain.

Though SBS is thoroughly capable of hosting websites (I do it myself) it's
not really a good idea, particularly considering the _very cheap_
alternatives which may not only give you greater facility and bandwidth but
also less concern about 'such hacks'.

"Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> Hi all,
>
> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP using
> exchange for mail.
>
> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being redirected
> to a Banking Phishing website.
> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing it
> looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any ideas on
> how to approach this to find fix it?
>
> Thanks
>



Re: Rogue PHP file by Susan

Susan
Sat Jun 28 08:00:53 PDT 2008

Sandi and I have seen many a SBS site end up being a Phishing launching
site.



SuperGumby [SBS MVP] wrote:
> G'day Frank,
>
> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil' that
> you will get from Leythos.
>
> I have the benefit of having seen your later post but, so far, I'm not
> really sure whether the internet name for your SBS is _actually_
> mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com. There's issues about bad/poisoned DNS that would need
> to be investigated. SBS would need to be _pretty thoroughly 'owned'_ before
> 'anything.php' comes into play.
>
> _IF_ the server has been compromised, and so far I'm not really sure it has,
> you should be firstly looking to PCSafety, as Susan has suggested, and then
> considering _HOW_ this happened and the _cost_ of addressing the issue (on
> your primary DC, which you should now trust _NOTHING_ from), vs externally
> hosting your public (www) domain.
>
> Though SBS is thoroughly capable of hosting websites (I do it myself) it's
> not really a good idea, particularly considering the _very cheap_
> alternatives which may not only give you greater facility and bandwidth but
> also less concern about 'such hacks'.
>
> "Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP using
>> exchange for mail.
>>
>> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
>> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being redirected
>> to a Banking Phishing website.
>> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing it
>> looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any ideas on
>> how to approach this to find fix it?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
>

Re: Rogue PHP file by Leythos

Leythos
Sat Jun 28 12:55:08 PDT 2008

In article <eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>, not@your.nellie
says...
> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil' that
> you will get from Leythos.
>
In most cases, a SBS setup is installed and not-maintained by anyone
technical, it's sold as a simple solution and installed by noobs in
almost every case I've come across.

The same is true for network security, it's an after thought or a cheap
device that claims to be a firewall on the packaging is used because
they wanted to save money...

Routers are simple devices, they can not be evil.

NAT Routers used to be called ROUTER in the days of honesty, then
marketing types got the idea that NAT was a firewall method, except NAT
could pass everything inbound without blocking anything if it was 1:1
NAT, or if the unknowing person put the server in the DMZ IP address
since those devices don't really have a DMZ network.

So, it comes down to badly installed SBS installations protected by
Routers that are not even in the firewall class, managed by people that
don't have much of a clue, and then they wonder when something
happens....

Yes, it's a soapbox but if you've got any real experience around the
country you will see exactly what I'm saying in just about any location.

The information we're provided in this problem is very vague, and I've
checked out the DNS records, DNS Servers, website, etc...

Since we don't know much, all I can say is that the DNS resolves to a an
address in Florida, a Domain Name company up north, and that the IP of
mail... is not on any black list....

Without more details we can't really help here.


--
- Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Re: Rogue PHP file by Frank

Frank
Sat Jun 28 14:31:40 PDT 2008

Hi Leythos,SuperGumby

Unfortunetly for me I have installed 10 SBS 2003 systems and always insisted
that a WatchGuard or equivalent security appliance be purchased so I have
never run accross a situation like this before. The FQDN is ASI01.ASI.local
The domain name is www.attachmentsales.com. Please let me know what other
info you need.
Thanks for the kick in my behind I needed a wakeup call!

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:1214689991_158065@news.usenet.com...
> In article <eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>, not@your.nellie
> says...
>> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil'
>> that
>> you will get from Leythos.
>>
> In most cases, a SBS setup is installed and not-maintained by anyone
> technical, it's sold as a simple solution and installed by noobs in
> almost every case I've come across.
>
> The same is true for network security, it's an after thought or a cheap
> device that claims to be a firewall on the packaging is used because
> they wanted to save money...
>
> Routers are simple devices, they can not be evil.
>
> NAT Routers used to be called ROUTER in the days of honesty, then
> marketing types got the idea that NAT was a firewall method, except NAT
> could pass everything inbound without blocking anything if it was 1:1
> NAT, or if the unknowing person put the server in the DMZ IP address
> since those devices don't really have a DMZ network.
>
> So, it comes down to badly installed SBS installations protected by
> Routers that are not even in the firewall class, managed by people that
> don't have much of a clue, and then they wonder when something
> happens....
>
> Yes, it's a soapbox but if you've got any real experience around the
> country you will see exactly what I'm saying in just about any location.
>
> The information we're provided in this problem is very vague, and I've
> checked out the DNS records, DNS Servers, website, etc...
>
> Since we don't know much, all I can say is that the DNS resolves to a an
> address in Florida, a Domain Name company up north, and that the IP of
> mail... is not on any black list....
>
> Without more details we can't really help here.
>
>
> --
> - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
> - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
> drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)



Re: Rogue PHP file by Frank

Frank
Sat Jun 28 16:29:15 PDT 2008

Hi once again,

Additional info: The company website is not hosted on the server. It is
hosted by a local company called tinkergraphics.com / Our DNS is managed by
RoadRunner.
"SuperGumby [SBS MVP]" <not@your.nellie> wrote in message
news:eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> G'day Frank,
>
> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil' that
> you will get from Leythos.
>
> I have the benefit of having seen your later post but, so far, I'm not
> really sure whether the internet name for your SBS is _actually_
> mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com. There's issues about bad/poisoned DNS that would need
> to be investigated. SBS would need to be _pretty thoroughly 'owned'_
> before 'anything.php' comes into play.
>
> _IF_ the server has been compromised, and so far I'm not really sure it
> has, you should be firstly looking to PCSafety, as Susan has suggested,
> and then considering _HOW_ this happened and the _cost_ of addressing the
> issue (on your primary DC, which you should now trust _NOTHING_ from), vs
> externally hosting your public (www) domain.
>
> Though SBS is thoroughly capable of hosting websites (I do it myself) it's
> not really a good idea, particularly considering the _very cheap_
> alternatives which may not only give you greater facility and bandwidth
> but also less concern about 'such hacks'.
>
> "Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP using
>> exchange for mail.
>>
>> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
>> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being
>> redirected to a Banking Phishing website.
>> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing it
>> looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any ideas on
>> how to approach this to find fix it?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
>



Re: Rogue PHP file by Susan

Susan
Sat Jun 28 16:27:17 PDT 2008

Chances are there is a phishing site on the server. Calling support on
Monday morning is a free call and they have forensic investigation tools
to let you know what (if anything else) is on that box.

If someone has rights to install stuff on a system from inside the lan
(say from a phishing email they got) no amount of a firewall will help
unless you have rules monitoring what's going on.

If there is stupid user interaction behind this, firewalls won't help gang.

Frank wrote:
> Hi Leythos,SuperGumby
>
> Unfortunetly for me I have installed 10 SBS 2003 systems and always insisted
> that a WatchGuard or equivalent security appliance be purchased so I have
> never run accross a situation like this before. The FQDN is ASI01.ASI.local
> The domain name is www.attachmentsales.com. Please let me know what other
> info you need.
> Thanks for the kick in my behind I needed a wakeup call!
>
> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
> news:1214689991_158065@news.usenet.com...
>> In article <eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>, not@your.nellie
>> says...
>>> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil'
>>> that
>>> you will get from Leythos.
>>>
>> In most cases, a SBS setup is installed and not-maintained by anyone
>> technical, it's sold as a simple solution and installed by noobs in
>> almost every case I've come across.
>>
>> The same is true for network security, it's an after thought or a cheap
>> device that claims to be a firewall on the packaging is used because
>> they wanted to save money...
>>
>> Routers are simple devices, they can not be evil.
>>
>> NAT Routers used to be called ROUTER in the days of honesty, then
>> marketing types got the idea that NAT was a firewall method, except NAT
>> could pass everything inbound without blocking anything if it was 1:1
>> NAT, or if the unknowing person put the server in the DMZ IP address
>> since those devices don't really have a DMZ network.
>>
>> So, it comes down to badly installed SBS installations protected by
>> Routers that are not even in the firewall class, managed by people that
>> don't have much of a clue, and then they wonder when something
>> happens....
>>
>> Yes, it's a soapbox but if you've got any real experience around the
>> country you will see exactly what I'm saying in just about any location.
>>
>> The information we're provided in this problem is very vague, and I've
>> checked out the DNS records, DNS Servers, website, etc...
>>
>> Since we don't know much, all I can say is that the DNS resolves to a an
>> address in Florida, a Domain Name company up north, and that the IP of
>> mail... is not on any black list....
>>
>> Without more details we can't really help here.
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
>> - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
>> drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
>> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
>
>

Re: Rogue PHP file by Gregg

Gregg
Sat Jun 28 17:30:58 PDT 2008

PMFJI, but your mail server answers on port 80. It should not. If you are
not running a public web server on your SBS (and you should NOT be), then
close port 80 to your SBS. It is not needed!

It appears to have an Apache server listening. This is the output after
quitting a Telnet session to port 80:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<TITLE>501
Method Not Implemented</TITLE>

</HEAD><BODY>

<H1>
Method Not Implemented</H1>
?quit to /index.html not supported.<P>
Invalid
method in request ?quit<P>

<HR>

<ADDRESS>Apache/1
.3.23 Server at localhost Port 80</ADDRESS>
</BODY></HTML>
Connection to host lost.

But then again, I could be wrong!

Gregg Hill


"Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4866c94d$0$12022$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> Hi once again,
>
> Additional info: The company website is not hosted on the server. It is
> hosted by a local company called tinkergraphics.com / Our DNS is managed
> by RoadRunner.
> "SuperGumby [SBS MVP]" <not@your.nellie> wrote in message
> news:eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> G'day Frank,
>>
>> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil'
>> that you will get from Leythos.
>>
>> I have the benefit of having seen your later post but, so far, I'm not
>> really sure whether the internet name for your SBS is _actually_
>> mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com. There's issues about bad/poisoned DNS that would
>> need to be investigated. SBS would need to be _pretty thoroughly 'owned'_
>> before 'anything.php' comes into play.
>>
>> _IF_ the server has been compromised, and so far I'm not really sure it
>> has, you should be firstly looking to PCSafety, as Susan has suggested,
>> and then considering _HOW_ this happened and the _cost_ of addressing the
>> issue (on your primary DC, which you should now trust _NOTHING_ from), vs
>> externally hosting your public (www) domain.
>>
>> Though SBS is thoroughly capable of hosting websites (I do it myself)
>> it's not really a good idea, particularly considering the _very cheap_
>> alternatives which may not only give you greater facility and bandwidth
>> but also less concern about 'such hacks'.
>>
>> "Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP
>>> using exchange for mail.
>>>
>>> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
>>> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being
>>> redirected to a Banking Phishing website.
>>> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing
>>> it looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any
>>> ideas on how to approach this to find fix it?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Re: Rogue PHP file by Cliff

Cliff
Sat Jun 28 23:30:12 PDT 2008

It is tough to be certain, but I don't believe the box is compromised.
There are enough other discrepencies (particularly with the revelation that
his DNS is supposed to be managed by RoadRunner) to point to DNS issues.
Serious ones. The glue records don't match the nameservers listed by the
SOA. The mailserver appears to be running a webserver besides IIS, which
SBS would complain about for other features like companyweb, etc.

So, Frank, what *I'd* like to see to troubleshoot this problem is:

1) What IP addresses are assigned by your cable company.
2) What IP address do you believe should mail.attachmentsales.com have.
3) Who do you believe is the registrar for your domain?
4) What DNS servers RoadRunner tells you that you should be using for your
attachmentsales.com DNS management.

From there we can at least begin to see what 'appears' legitimate and what
doesn't.

-Cliff

"Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]" <sbradcpa@pacbell.net>
wrote in message news:OEEVCaX2IHA.4164@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> Chances are there is a phishing site on the server. Calling support on
> Monday morning is a free call and they have forensic investigation tools
> to let you know what (if anything else) is on that box.
>
> If someone has rights to install stuff on a system from inside the lan
> (say from a phishing email they got) no amount of a firewall will help
> unless you have rules monitoring what's going on.
>
> If there is stupid user interaction behind this, firewalls won't help
> gang.
>
> Frank wrote:
>> Hi Leythos,SuperGumby
>>
>> Unfortunetly for me I have installed 10 SBS 2003 systems and always
>> insisted that a WatchGuard or equivalent security appliance be purchased
>> so I have never run accross a situation like this before. The FQDN is
>> ASI01.ASI.local The domain name is www.attachmentsales.com. Please let me
>> know what other info you need.
>> Thanks for the kick in my behind I needed a wakeup call!
>>
>> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
>> news:1214689991_158065@news.usenet.com...
>>> In article <eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>, not@your.nellie
>>> says...
>>>> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil'
>>>> that
>>>> you will get from Leythos.
>>>>
>>> In most cases, a SBS setup is installed and not-maintained by anyone
>>> technical, it's sold as a simple solution and installed by noobs in
>>> almost every case I've come across.
>>>
>>> The same is true for network security, it's an after thought or a cheap
>>> device that claims to be a firewall on the packaging is used because
>>> they wanted to save money...
>>>
>>> Routers are simple devices, they can not be evil.
>>>
>>> NAT Routers used to be called ROUTER in the days of honesty, then
>>> marketing types got the idea that NAT was a firewall method, except NAT
>>> could pass everything inbound without blocking anything if it was 1:1
>>> NAT, or if the unknowing person put the server in the DMZ IP address
>>> since those devices don't really have a DMZ network.
>>>
>>> So, it comes down to badly installed SBS installations protected by
>>> Routers that are not even in the firewall class, managed by people that
>>> don't have much of a clue, and then they wonder when something
>>> happens....
>>>
>>> Yes, it's a soapbox but if you've got any real experience around the
>>> country you will see exactly what I'm saying in just about any location.
>>>
>>> The information we're provided in this problem is very vague, and I've
>>> checked out the DNS records, DNS Servers, website, etc...
>>>
>>> Since we don't know much, all I can say is that the DNS resolves to a an
>>> address in Florida, a Domain Name company up north, and that the IP of
>>> mail... is not on any black list....
>>>
>>> Without more details we can't really help here.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
>>> - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
>>> drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
>>> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
>>

Re: Rogue PHP file by Frank

Frank
Sun Jun 29 04:33:40 PDT 2008

Hi Cliff,

I called the Owner last night and he corrected the ISP name given to me by
his Secretary/Tech. person. It is not Roadrunner as previously stated. It is
ITC Deltacom. Here is the info you requested:
1) What IP addresses are assigned by your cable company.

TC^Deltacom NETBLCK-ITCD-3 (NET-66-0-0-0-1)

66.0.0.0 - 66.0.255.255

Attachment Sales ITCD-66-0-146-120 (NET-66-0-146-120-1)

66.0.146.120 - 66.0.146.1272)

What IP address do you believe should mail.attachmentsales.com have.

66.0.146.122

3) Who do you believe is the registrar for your domain?

Domain Name: ATTACHMENTSALES.COM

Registrar: DOMAINPEOPLE, INC.

Whois Server: whois.domainpeople.com

Referral URL: http://www.domainpeople.com

Name Server: NS.PLANETUSOFA.COM

Name Server: NS2.PLANETUSOFA.COM

Status: ok

Updated Date: 06-mar-2008

Creation Date: 12-mar-1998

Expiration Date: 11-mar-2009

4) What DNS servers RoadRunner tells you that you should be using for your
attachmentsales.com DNS management.

66.0.214.14 /207.230.75.50


"Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:664F5E4E-F91F-4675-9C30-86A5EF15818B@microsoft.com...
> It is tough to be certain, but I don't believe the box is compromised.
> There are enough other discrepencies (particularly with the revelation
> that his DNS is supposed to be managed by RoadRunner) to point to DNS
> issues. Serious ones. The glue records don't match the nameservers listed
> by the SOA. The mailserver appears to be running a webserver besides IIS,
> which SBS would complain about for other features like companyweb, etc.
>
> So, Frank, what *I'd* like to see to troubleshoot this problem is:
>
> 1) What IP addresses are assigned by your cable company.
> 2) What IP address do you believe should mail.attachmentsales.com have.
> 3) Who do you believe is the registrar for your domain?
> 4) What DNS servers RoadRunner tells you that you should be using for your
> attachmentsales.com DNS management.
>
> From there we can at least begin to see what 'appears' legitimate and what
> doesn't.
>
> -Cliff
>
> "Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]" <sbradcpa@pacbell.net>
> wrote in message news:OEEVCaX2IHA.4164@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> Chances are there is a phishing site on the server. Calling support on
>> Monday morning is a free call and they have forensic investigation tools
>> to let you know what (if anything else) is on that box.
>>
>> If someone has rights to install stuff on a system from inside the lan
>> (say from a phishing email they got) no amount of a firewall will help
>> unless you have rules monitoring what's going on.
>>
>> If there is stupid user interaction behind this, firewalls won't help
>> gang.
>>
>> Frank wrote:
>>> Hi Leythos,SuperGumby
>>>
>>> Unfortunetly for me I have installed 10 SBS 2003 systems and always
>>> insisted that a WatchGuard or equivalent security appliance be purchased
>>> so I have never run accross a situation like this before. The FQDN is
>>> ASI01.ASI.local The domain name is www.attachmentsales.com. Please let
>>> me know what other info you need.
>>> Thanks for the kick in my behind I needed a wakeup call!
>>>
>>> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
>>> news:1214689991_158065@news.usenet.com...
>>>> In article <eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>, not@your.nellie
>>>> says...
>>>>> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil'
>>>>> that
>>>>> you will get from Leythos.
>>>>>
>>>> In most cases, a SBS setup is installed and not-maintained by anyone
>>>> technical, it's sold as a simple solution and installed by noobs in
>>>> almost every case I've come across.
>>>>
>>>> The same is true for network security, it's an after thought or a cheap
>>>> device that claims to be a firewall on the packaging is used because
>>>> they wanted to save money...
>>>>
>>>> Routers are simple devices, they can not be evil.
>>>>
>>>> NAT Routers used to be called ROUTER in the days of honesty, then
>>>> marketing types got the idea that NAT was a firewall method, except NAT
>>>> could pass everything inbound without blocking anything if it was 1:1
>>>> NAT, or if the unknowing person put the server in the DMZ IP address
>>>> since those devices don't really have a DMZ network.
>>>>
>>>> So, it comes down to badly installed SBS installations protected by
>>>> Routers that are not even in the firewall class, managed by people that
>>>> don't have much of a clue, and then they wonder when something
>>>> happens....
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's a soapbox but if you've got any real experience around the
>>>> country you will see exactly what I'm saying in just about any
>>>> location.
>>>>
>>>> The information we're provided in this problem is very vague, and I've
>>>> checked out the DNS records, DNS Servers, website, etc...
>>>>
>>>> Since we don't know much, all I can say is that the DNS resolves to a
>>>> an
>>>> address in Florida, a Domain Name company up north, and that the IP of
>>>> mail... is not on any black list....
>>>>
>>>> Without more details we can't really help here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
>>>> - Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented worker" is like calling a
>>>> drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"
>>>> spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
>>>



Re: Rogue PHP file by Frank

Frank
Sun Jun 29 11:21:05 PDT 2008

Update,

In IIS Manager found I could not start the default company website. error
msg. - "The process cannot access the file because it is being used by
another program" I ran netstat -ano and found Apache on port 80. I have
disabled apache through Services and will be on clients site monday morning
to futher investigate.
"Gregg Hill" <greggmhill at please do not spam me at yahoo dot com> wrote in
message news:uuqgo9X2IHA.528@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> PMFJI, but your mail server answers on port 80. It should not. If you are
> not running a public web server on your SBS (and you should NOT be), then
> close port 80 to your SBS. It is not needed!
>
> It appears to have an Apache server listening. This is the output after
> quitting a Telnet session to port 80:
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <TITLE>501
> Method Not Implemented</TITLE>
>
> </HEAD><BODY>
>
> <H1>
> Method Not Implemented</H1>
> ?quit to /index.html not supported.<P>
> Invalid
> method in request ?quit<P>
>
> <HR>
>
> <ADDRESS>Apache/1
> .3.23 Server at localhost Port 80</ADDRESS>
> </BODY></HTML>
> Connection to host lost.
>
> But then again, I could be wrong!
>
> Gregg Hill
>
>
> "Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:4866c94d$0$12022$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> Hi once again,
>>
>> Additional info: The company website is not hosted on the server. It is
>> hosted by a local company called tinkergraphics.com / Our DNS is managed
>> by RoadRunner.
>> "SuperGumby [SBS MVP]" <not@your.nellie> wrote in message
>> news:eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> G'day Frank,
>>>
>>> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil'
>>> that you will get from Leythos.
>>>
>>> I have the benefit of having seen your later post but, so far, I'm not
>>> really sure whether the internet name for your SBS is _actually_
>>> mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com. There's issues about bad/poisoned DNS that would
>>> need to be investigated. SBS would need to be _pretty thoroughly
>>> 'owned'_ before 'anything.php' comes into play.
>>>
>>> _IF_ the server has been compromised, and so far I'm not really sure it
>>> has, you should be firstly looking to PCSafety, as Susan has suggested,
>>> and then considering _HOW_ this happened and the _cost_ of addressing
>>> the issue (on your primary DC, which you should now trust _NOTHING_
>>> from), vs externally hosting your public (www) domain.
>>>
>>> Though SBS is thoroughly capable of hosting websites (I do it myself)
>>> it's not really a good idea, particularly considering the _very cheap_
>>> alternatives which may not only give you greater facility and bandwidth
>>> but also less concern about 'such hacks'.
>>>
>>> "Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
>>> news:48658f04$0$5981$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> SBS 2003 server, XP pro clients, WRT54GS router, Static IP from ISP
>>>> using exchange for mail.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure if this is the right news group. I got a call today from a new
>>>> client stating that their mail.xxxxxxxxxx.com address was being
>>>> redirected to a Banking Phishing website.
>>>> They stated that they got a call from a security firm in Calif. staing
>>>> it looked to them like a rogue PHP file was accepting requests. Any
>>>> ideas on how to approach this to find fix it?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Re: Rogue PHP file by Cliff

Cliff
Sun Jun 29 11:56:57 PDT 2008

A day late and a dollar short I guess. As of now, mail.attachmentsales.com
is responding exactly how one would expect an SBS box to.

You do, however, have other DNS problems that you *should* resolve.

1) Your mailserver appears to be at the IP address you gave and listening
properly. If it is compromised, somebody disabled whatever they were doing
within the last 12 hours.

2) Your registrar has your nameservers listed incorrectly. They have them
listed as ns.planetofusa.com and ns2.planetofusa.com. When queried, they
believe they are authoritative.

3) Your SOA reports two nameservers, ns.host4u.net and ns2.host4u.net.
These two *ALSO* claim to be authoritative. These are NOT the nameservers
listed in your registrars record (see point 2) and these should match.
--At first I thought maybe some of the companies. Tinkergraphics.com
resells planetusofa.com webhosting, so that explains why they are listed as
nameservers, but host4u.net is not affiliated with either of those, nor are
they affiliated with TC Deltacom.

4) With two distinct sets of nameservers both claiming to be authoritative,
and both have the same SOA/serial, that implies one is being allowed to
replicate from another. I don't have enough information to tell you which
is which, but based on your previous post, TC Deltacom *should* be the
authoritative nameserves, not EITHER of these (a factI think is in error
actually, but we'll get to that.) Either way, without a clear authoritative
nameserver and given that apparently permissions are set on one of them to
allow complete replication, it is very possible that there was some DNS
hijacking happening.

5) TC Deltacom (nor roadrunner) appears to be responsible for hosting your
DNS, which is something you said they should be doing. I can find no
evidence of this. If they are then, again, there are more DNS issues to
resolve.

6) The two IPs you gave me as an answer for question 4 appear to be
recursive DNS servers for ISP customers, not authoritative DNS servers for
DNS hosts. Those are two very different roles, so the information provided
did not help narrow down the problem as much as I had hoped it would.

7) Also, as a point of skepticism....attachmentsales.com gets an entire
class B block from their ISP??? And they aren't hosting their OWN DNS, and
are using SBS???????? I don't believe your answer to question 1 was
accurate...and again, can impact the time it takes to troubleshoot the
problem.

--

Ultimately you need to straighten out your DNS issues. Had those been in
order, I perhaps could've told you more about the rogue site listening on
the presumptive maileserver, but since I couldn't...and now the proper IP
addresses are listing and listening, I cannot retroactively tell you what
the problem was.

I can 'suspect' that your machine was not compromised. I say this because
what I saw yesterday was not a normal IIS response. It is, of course,
possible that somebody took some time to code a PHP file that falsified
headers to appear as an apache server AND redirect, but I find this
unlikely.

Apache would not have been able to bind to port 80. IIS already has that
port as evidenced that it is actually responding today. This leads me to
believe that another machine was temporarily answering incoming calls...and
that would, again, indicate that perhaps a different IP was being given out.

The changing behavior would also indicate this. If somebody successfully
poisoned a DNS record and set up a phishing site then going to
mail.attachmentsales.com gives you the phishing site. As phishing sites
tend to be shortlived, when they shut it down, you get a blank page until
the TTL of the poisoned record expires. Once the poisoned record is no
longer existing in various caches, the 'real' site magically starts
reappearing.

In summary, you have other significant configuration issues to be addressed
and too much time has passed to accurately know what happened. It is all
speculation at this point so, although I initially didn't agree with her
assessment, I agree with Susan that it would be prudent to get the box
checked out. I still don't believe it was compromised, but better safe than
sorry...and again, too late to know for certain.

-Cliff


"Frank" <ffarero@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:48677318$0$5972$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> Hi Cliff,
>
> I called the Owner last night and he corrected the ISP name given to me by
> his Secretary/Tech. person. It is not Roadrunner as previously stated. It
> is ITC Deltacom. Here is the info you requested:
> 1) What IP addresses are assigned by your cable company.
>
> TC^Deltacom NETBLCK-ITCD-3 (NET-66-0-0-0-1)
>
> 66.0.0.0 - 66.0.255.255
>
> Attachment Sales ITCD-66-0-146-120 (NET-66-0-146-120-1)
>
> 66.0.146.120 - 66.0.146.1272)
>
> What IP address do you believe should mail.attachmentsales.com have.
>
> 66.0.146.122
>
> 3) Who do you believe is the registrar for your domain?
>
> Domain Name: ATTACHMENTSALES.COM
>
> Registrar: DOMAINPEOPLE, INC.
>
> Whois Server: whois.domainpeople.com
>
> Referral URL: http://www.domainpeople.com
>
> Name Server: NS.PLANETUSOFA.COM
>
> Name Server: NS2.PLANETUSOFA.COM
>
> Status: ok
>
> Updated Date: 06-mar-2008
>
> Creation Date: 12-mar-1998
>
> Expiration Date: 11-mar-2009
>
> 4) What DNS servers RoadRunner tells you that you should be using for your
> attachmentsales.com DNS management.
>
> 66.0.214.14 /207.230.75.50
>
>
> "Cliff Galiher" <cgaliher@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:664F5E4E-F91F-4675-9C30-86A5EF15818B@microsoft.com...
>> It is tough to be certain, but I don't believe the box is compromised.
>> There are enough other discrepencies (particularly with the revelation
>> that his DNS is supposed to be managed by RoadRunner) to point to DNS
>> issues. Serious ones. The glue records don't match the nameservers
>> listed by the SOA. The mailserver appears to be running a webserver
>> besides IIS, which SBS would complain about for other features like
>> companyweb, etc.
>>
>> So, Frank, what *I'd* like to see to troubleshoot this problem is:
>>
>> 1) What IP addresses are assigned by your cable company.
>> 2) What IP address do you believe should mail.attachmentsales.com have.
>> 3) Who do you believe is the registrar for your domain?
>> 4) What DNS servers RoadRunner tells you that you should be using for
>> your attachmentsales.com DNS management.
>>
>> From there we can at least begin to see what 'appears' legitimate and
>> what doesn't.
>>
>> -Cliff
>>
>> "Susan Bradley, CPA aka Ebitz - SBS Rocks [MVP]" <sbradcpa@pacbell.net>
>> wrote in message news:OEEVCaX2IHA.4164@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> Chances are there is a phishing site on the server. Calling support on
>>> Monday morning is a free call and they have forensic investigation tools
>>> to let you know what (if anything else) is on that box.
>>>
>>> If someone has rights to install stuff on a system from inside the lan
>>> (say from a phishing email they got) no amount of a firewall will help
>>> unless you have rules monitoring what's going on.
>>>
>>> If there is stupid user interaction behind this, firewalls won't help
>>> gang.
>>>
>>> Frank wrote:
>>>> Hi Leythos,SuperGumby
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunetly for me I have installed 10 SBS 2003 systems and always
>>>> insisted that a WatchGuard or equivalent security appliance be
>>>> purchased so I have never run accross a situation like this before. The
>>>> FQDN is ASI01.ASI.local The domain name is www.attachmentsales.com.
>>>> Please let me know what other info you need.
>>>> Thanks for the kick in my behind I needed a wakeup call!
>>>>
>>>> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
>>>> news:1214689991_158065@news.usenet.com...
>>>>> In article <eXTwe2S2IHA.4912@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>, not@your.nellie
>>>>> says...
>>>>>> I am neither the 'alarmist' which Susan is nor the 'routers are evil'
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> you will get from Leythos.
>>>>>>
>>>>> In most cases, a SBS setup is installed and not-maintained by anyone
>>>>> technical, it's sold as a simple solution and installed by noobs in
>>>>> almost every case I've come across.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same is true for network security, it's an after thought or a
>>>>> cheap
>>>>> device that claims to be a firewall on the packaging is used because
>>>>> they wanted to save money...
>>>>>
>>>>> Routers are simple devices, they can not be evil.
>>>>>
>>>>> NAT Routers used to be called ROUTER in the days of honesty, then
>>>>> marketing types got the idea that NAT was a firewall method, except
>>>>> NAT
>>>>> could pass everything inbound without blocking anything if it was 1:1
>>>>> NAT, or if the unknowing person put the server in the DMZ IP address
>>>>> since those devices don't really have a DMZ network.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, it comes down to badly installed SBS installations protected by
>>>>> Routers that are not even in the firewall class, managed by people
>>>>> that
>>>>> don't have much of a clue, and then they wonder when something
>>>>> happens....
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's a soapbox but if you've got any real experience around the
>>>>> country you will see exactly what I'm saying in just about any
>>>>> location.
>>>>>
>>>>> The information we're provided in this problem is very