TFAT Questions:

System Description: We are using WinCE 4.2 on an Intel x86 platform
with either a hard disk or Compact Flash (CF). We utilize the WinCE
DOS Boot-Loader to boot WinCE. We us a hive-based registry which
persists on the hard disk along with the nk.bin file and several other
system configuration files and web pages.

Currently the system boots on a DOS FAT16 formatted partition. We
want to enable the WinCE 4.2 TFAT feature to provide maximum system
reliability.

1) Should we format the primary disk partition as TFAT for maximum
reliability? Can WinCE even boot from a pure TFAT formatted
partition? Or alternatively, should we use a regular FAT16 partition
with the registry configured to create a second FAT table, and then
treat the partition as if it were TFAT?

If the bootable partition can be formatted as TFAT, we have the
following questions regarding preparing the hard disk (or CF) image.
All WinCE documentation regarding preparing a hard disk and loading
the DOS Boot-Loader refer to using DOS utilities.
A)How can we create the pure TFAT16 formatted partition? Do we
first have to load WinCE and use its format utility, or is there a
TFAT format utility for DOS?
B)Will the CeSys.exe utility recognize a TFAT partition, and
correctly load the disk boot sector so the system will correctly find
the DOS Boot-Loader.
C)Can a TFAT formatted disk be duplicated using standard disk
imaging tools such as Symantec Ghost or Power Quest Drive Image?
These tools are commonly used in the PC world. If these tools will
not work with TFAT, can you recommend other tools that will replicate
a TFAT partition?

If the bootable partition CANNOT be formatted as TFAT, then there are
the following questions:
D)TFAT will not transact files in the hard disk root directory.
This is typically where we put our nk.bin file. Should this file, and
all other root directory files, be relocated under the special
"__TFAT_HIDDEN_ROOT_DIR__" directory so as to provide maximum system
reliability? Or is this not necessary?

2) Once a CF disk has been used as a TFAT partition under WinCE, is
there any way to delete files on the CF disk when accessing it through
a CF card reading on a desktop workstation? It would be nice to have
utilities to modify TFAT disks when accessed by a standard XP desktop
system. It is a common development practice here to take a CF disk,
then modify, delete, or copy files on it from a desktop workstation,
then put the CF disk back into the WinCE machine and run it from
there. Using a TFAT formatted CF disk puts a wrinkle in this
practice, as the desktop OS (XP) does not natively handle TFAT. Any
suggestions for ways to correctly access a TFAT formatted CF disk from
a XP workstations?

Thanks for Any positive information!

Re: TFAT Questions by Sachin

Sachin
Tue Jul 29 22:51:31 CDT 2003

1. Yes, you can format the primary partition as TFAT. TFAT has the same
partition type as a regular FAT volume, so it should be OK.
A. You have to format a TFAT volume in CE using FATUTIL. There is
currently no way to do it in DOS.
B. I would assume the utility will correctly find the TFAT partition since
the partition types are the same, but have not tried it.
C. I would assume this would be OK as well, but can't say for sure as I've
never tried these either.
D. For FAT16 with TFAT, unless you have the FATFS_DISABLE_TFAT_REDIR set in
the registry, it will always do the hidden root directory redirection
automatically, and therefore be transaction safe. You don't have to refer
to the hidden dir at all in your path.

2. We don't recommend taking a TFAT volume over the desktop to do any
write/delete operations on. It is only safe to do read-only operations on
the desktop. However, it will probably work ok if you stick to file
operations (though we don't guarantee this). However, you do not want to do
directory operations (CreateDirectory, RemoveDirectory, moving/renaming a
directory, etc). This will definitely cause problems as TFAT directories
have a special format.

--
Sachin Patel
Software Design Engineer, Windows CE

To reply directly, remove "online" from my email address.
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.

"ReidH" <rheimbeck@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:16271ff1.0307291522.5dfd8e86@posting.google.com...
> TFAT Questions:
>
> System Description: We are using WinCE 4.2 on an Intel x86 platform
> with either a hard disk or Compact Flash (CF). We utilize the WinCE
> DOS Boot-Loader to boot WinCE. We us a hive-based registry which
> persists on the hard disk along with the nk.bin file and several other
> system configuration files and web pages.
>
> Currently the system boots on a DOS FAT16 formatted partition. We
> want to enable the WinCE 4.2 TFAT feature to provide maximum system
> reliability.
>
> 1) Should we format the primary disk partition as TFAT for maximum
> reliability? Can WinCE even boot from a pure TFAT formatted
> partition? Or alternatively, should we use a regular FAT16 partition
> with the registry configured to create a second FAT table, and then
> treat the partition as if it were TFAT?
>
> If the bootable partition can be formatted as TFAT, we have the
> following questions regarding preparing the hard disk (or CF) image.
> All WinCE documentation regarding preparing a hard disk and loading
> the DOS Boot-Loader refer to using DOS utilities.
> A)How can we create the pure TFAT16 formatted partition? Do we
> first have to load WinCE and use its format utility, or is there a
> TFAT format utility for DOS?
> B)Will the CeSys.exe utility recognize a TFAT partition, and
> correctly load the disk boot sector so the system will correctly find
> the DOS Boot-Loader.
> C)Can a TFAT formatted disk be duplicated using standard disk
> imaging tools such as Symantec Ghost or Power Quest Drive Image?
> These tools are commonly used in the PC world. If these tools will
> not work with TFAT, can you recommend other tools that will replicate
> a TFAT partition?
>
> If the bootable partition CANNOT be formatted as TFAT, then there are
> the following questions:
> D)TFAT will not transact files in the hard disk root directory.
> This is typically where we put our nk.bin file. Should this file, and
> all other root directory files, be relocated under the special
> "__TFAT_HIDDEN_ROOT_DIR__" directory so as to provide maximum system
> reliability? Or is this not necessary?
>
> 2) Once a CF disk has been used as a TFAT partition under WinCE, is
> there any way to delete files on the CF disk when accessing it through
> a CF card reading on a desktop workstation? It would be nice to have
> utilities to modify TFAT disks when accessed by a standard XP desktop
> system. It is a common development practice here to take a CF disk,
> then modify, delete, or copy files on it from a desktop workstation,
> then put the CF disk back into the WinCE machine and run it from
> there. Using a TFAT formatted CF disk puts a wrinkle in this
> practice, as the desktop OS (XP) does not natively handle TFAT. Any
> suggestions for ways to correctly access a TFAT formatted CF disk from
> a XP workstations?
>
> Thanks for Any positive information!



Re: TFAT Questions by David

David
Fri Aug 01 04:37:25 CDT 2003

Where can I get the "FATUTIL" to format a TFAT volume ?

>-----Original Message-----
>1. Yes, you can format the primary partition as TFAT.
TFAT has the same
>partition type as a regular FAT volume, so it should be
OK.
>A. You have to format a TFAT volume in CE using
FATUTIL. There is
>currently no way to do it in DOS.
>B. I would assume the utility will correctly find the
TFAT partition since
>the partition types are the same, but have not tried it.
>C. I would assume this would be OK as well, but can't
say for sure as I've
>never tried these either.
>D. For FAT16 with TFAT, unless you have the
FATFS_DISABLE_TFAT_REDIR set in
>the registry, it will always do the hidden root directory
redirection
>automatically, and therefore be transaction safe. You
don't have to refer
>to the hidden dir at all in your path.
>
>2. We don't recommend taking a TFAT volume over the
desktop to do any
>write/delete operations on. It is only safe to do read-
only operations on
>the desktop. However, it will probably work ok if you
stick to file
>operations (though we don't guarantee this). However,
you do not want to do
>directory operations (CreateDirectory, RemoveDirectory,
moving/renaming a
>directory, etc). This will definitely cause problems as
TFAT directories
>have a special format.
>
>--
>Sachin Patel
>Software Design Engineer, Windows CE
>
>To reply directly, remove "online" from my email address.
>This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and
confers no rights.
>
>"ReidH" <rheimbeck@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:16271ff1.0307291522.5dfd8e86@posting.google.com...
>> TFAT Questions:
>>
>> System Description: We are using WinCE 4.2 on an Intel
x86 platform
>> with either a hard disk or Compact Flash (CF). We
utilize the WinCE
>> DOS Boot-Loader to boot WinCE. We us a hive-based
registry which
>> persists on the hard disk along with the nk.bin file
and several other
>> system configuration files and web pages.
>>
>> Currently the system boots on a DOS FAT16 formatted
partition. We
>> want to enable the WinCE 4.2 TFAT feature to provide
maximum system
>> reliability.
>>
>> 1) Should we format the primary disk partition as TFAT
for maximum
>> reliability? Can WinCE even boot from a pure TFAT
formatted
>> partition? Or alternatively, should we use a regular
FAT16 partition
>> with the registry configured to create a second FAT
table, and then
>> treat the partition as if it were TFAT?
>>
>> If the bootable partition can be formatted as TFAT, we
have the
>> following questions regarding preparing the hard disk
(or CF) image.
>> All WinCE documentation regarding preparing a hard disk
and loading
>> the DOS Boot-Loader refer to using DOS utilities.
>> A)How can we create the pure TFAT16 formatted
partition? Do we
>> first have to load WinCE and use its format utility, or
is there a
>> TFAT format utility for DOS?
>> B)Will the CeSys.exe utility recognize a TFAT
partition, and
>> correctly load the disk boot sector so the system will
correctly find
>> the DOS Boot-Loader.
>> C)Can a TFAT formatted disk be duplicated using
standard disk
>> imaging tools such as Symantec Ghost or Power Quest
Drive Image?
>> These tools are commonly used in the PC world. If
these tools will
>> not work with TFAT, can you recommend other tools that
will replicate
>> a TFAT partition?
>>
>> If the bootable partition CANNOT be formatted as TFAT,
then there are
>> the following questions:
>> D)TFAT will not transact files in the hard disk root
directory.
>> This is typically where we put our nk.bin file. Should
this file, and
>> all other root directory files, be relocated under the
special
>> "__TFAT_HIDDEN_ROOT_DIR__" directory so as to provide
maximum system
>> reliability? Or is this not necessary?
>>
>> 2) Once a CF disk has been used as a TFAT partition
under WinCE, is
>> there any way to delete files on the CF disk when
accessing it through
>> a CF card reading on a desktop workstation? It would
be nice to have
>> utilities to modify TFAT disks when accessed by a
standard XP desktop
>> system. It is a common development practice here to
take a CF disk,
>> then modify, delete, or copy files on it from a desktop
workstation,
>> then put the CF disk back into the WinCE machine and
run it from
>> there. Using a TFAT formatted CF disk puts a wrinkle
in this
>> practice, as the desktop OS (XP) does not natively
handle TFAT. Any
>> suggestions for ways to correctly access a TFAT
formatted CF disk from
>> a XP workstations?
>>
>> Thanks for Any positive information!
>
>
>.
>

Re: TFAT Questions by Reid

Reid
Mon Aug 11 18:14:44 CDT 2003

Sachin, Thank you for your information. I have continued to work with TFAT,
and now have a few new questions and comments.
First - I would like to use a pure TFAT16 formatted disk for maximum system
reliability, but I find this does not work with the BIOS bootloader. I
formatted the CF disk as TFAT16 under WinCE 4.2. I then shut down the system
and reboot it under DOS so I can use the CESys.exe utility called by the
MKDisk.bat file to load the boot sector and BIOS bootloader. This is the
WinCE documented procedure for installing the BIOS bootloader on FAT16, but
I I think it does not work for TFAT. When I attempt to boot from my newly
formatted and "sys'd" TFAT16 disk ..... No Love! The system just sits there,
completely hung. There are no status messages on either the CRT or through
the serial port. It is as if the BIOS bootloader is not even loaded by the
BIOS reading master boot record. I have successfully used the BIOS
bootloader with FAT16, and am very familiar with the disk preparation and
loader installation process. Do you have any ideas about what is going
wrong here? Perhaps we need a true WinCE version of the CeSys.exe utility
which can handle the special requirements of TFAT?

Second, the fall-back to using a pure TFAT format would be to use a regular
FAT16 disk with second FAT, and set the file system to treat this disk as if
it were TFAT. That's all good! However, I would also like to put my nk.bin
file under the __TFAT_HIDDEN_DIR__ directory so that if we have to do an
in-field upgrade of nk.bin, the operation will be protected by the TFAT
process should there be a power failure. So this should be easy enough -
however now the BIOS BootLoader has to be modified so that it can find
nk.bin under a sub-directory (one that is a long file name at that, too).
Looking into the BIOS BootLoader code I can see that it was written to
expect to find the nk.bin file only in the root directory. From the BIOS
bootloader's perspective, it does have to recognize the __TFAT_HIDDEN_DIR__
sub-directory. It does not look like a "transparent" root directory, which
is the disk file perspective once WinCE loads. I will attempt to add this
feature to the our BootLoader to fill in this hole. However, I wanted to
pass this information along so that maybe the next release of WinCE could
incorporate this feature in the BIOS BootLoader sample code. Currently, the
BIOS BootLoader code shipped with WinCE 4.2 does not work to provide a
complete solution when used in conjunction with TFAT.

I would greatly appreciate any positive suggestions for adapting and using
the BIOS bootloader with a TFAT formatted partition. Thanks!!