Question: Mounting partition to NTFS folder. Quirky?

Hey all,
I recently bought a 300GB SATA drive. It installed beautifully, I got
the BIOS configured, Windows found drivers for the device without me
even having to do anything, blah blah blah. I used the LDMS to split
the drive into two partitions: the first is 200GB and the second is
about 80GB (the rest being eaten by the Retail Hard Drive Size
Exaggeration Monster).

I then mounted the partition into an NTFS folder, and tried to copy
some files. Unfortunately, the copy failed almost immediately, saying
that the file could not be found. I found this odd, as the file was
certainly there. So I tried to delete the folder it created. Explorer
acted as if the folder were in use, saying Access Denied.

I was very confused about this bizarre behavior. I have another
partition on an IDE drive mounted into a folder, and it works great. I
tried reformatting the partition again, changing the cluster size,
making sure the cable was plugged in well, and (of course) rebooting. I
also ran Scandisk, which found no errors.

As a last resort, I mapped the drive to a drive letter (rather than a
folder). To my great surprise, everything worked. The files I could not
previously copy (it is worth noting that it was the same files each
time which refused to copy) now copied perfectly, and I could delete
the previously undeletable folders. To make sure I wasn't going crazy,
I remounted it into a folder. Bam, the same files refused to copy, and
the folders gave Access Denied errors again.

I really want to mount this partition in a folder. Can anyone give me
hints as to what I might be doing wrong about this? Is it a SATA/IDE
issue, since that's the only difference between the partition I have
mounted to a folder and the ones which are failing?

More standard info:
-The SATA drivers I'm using are apparently included with Windows. My
motherboard manufacturer does not have 64-bit drivers for the SATA
interface. The motherboard is an nForce 3 chipset (MSI K8N Neo2).

Thanks much,
Nathan

Theo
Fri Dec 01 10:20:40 CST 2006

Nathan Baker wrote:
> Hey all,
> I recently bought a 300GB SATA drive. It installed beautifully, I got
> the BIOS configured, Windows found drivers for the device without me
> even having to do anything, blah blah blah. I used the LDMS to split
> the drive into two partitions: the first is 200GB and the second is
> about 80GB (the rest being eaten by the Retail Hard Drive Size
> Exaggeration Monster).

There is no "Exaggeration Monster" that eats hard drive space!

The perceived discrepancy comes from the fact that hard
drive space is expressed in 2 different number bases.

The larger number is the space expressed in decimal, base
10, the system you use daily to count your money, etc.

The smaller number is the exact same space expressed in
binary, base 2, which you don't use on a daily basis.

Example: a Seagate 120 GB Hard drive

in decimal = 120,015,024,128 bytes

in binary it is rounded to 111GB

In Windows Explorer do a right click on a hard drive that
has all it's space allocated to a single partition. Note
the information about the hard drive space carefully and you
see the decimal size in the center and the binary space on
the right. The figures given are equal even though they are
expressed in two different number systems.

Nathan
Fri Dec 01 10:51:57 CST 2006

I am familiar with the differences between base 10 and base 2, thank
you. To expedite the answering of my real question, I am willing to
concede the point.

Nathan

Charlie
Fri Dec 01 12:32:50 CST 2006

I don't think this is a SATA or other hardware issue. It _may_ be a drive
size issue.

The short answer is that mounted volumes are, frankly, not as well
implemented as I think they should be. I've seen several issues with them.
As someone coming from the UNIX world, I was very much looking forward to
this functionality. But I've stopped trying to use it, and just do the drive
letter thing.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/xperts64


"Nathan Baker" <nathanb@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:1164986291.285010.217800@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> Hey all,
> I recently bought a 300GB SATA drive. It installed beautifully, I got
> the BIOS configured, Windows found drivers for the device without me
> even having to do anything, blah blah blah. I used the LDMS to split
> the drive into two partitions: the first is 200GB and the second is
> about 80GB (the rest being eaten by the Retail Hard Drive Size
> Exaggeration Monster).
>
> I then mounted the partition into an NTFS folder, and tried to copy
> some files. Unfortunately, the copy failed almost immediately, saying
> that the file could not be found. I found this odd, as the file was
> certainly there. So I tried to delete the folder it created. Explorer
> acted as if the folder were in use, saying Access Denied.
>
> I was very confused about this bizarre behavior. I have another
> partition on an IDE drive mounted into a folder, and it works great. I
> tried reformatting the partition again, changing the cluster size,
> making sure the cable was plugged in well, and (of course) rebooting. I
> also ran Scandisk, which found no errors.
>
> As a last resort, I mapped the drive to a drive letter (rather than a
> folder). To my great surprise, everything worked. The files I could not
> previously copy (it is worth noting that it was the same files each
> time which refused to copy) now copied perfectly, and I could delete
> the previously undeletable folders. To make sure I wasn't going crazy,
> I remounted it into a folder. Bam, the same files refused to copy, and
> the folders gave Access Denied errors again.
>
> I really want to mount this partition in a folder. Can anyone give me
> hints as to what I might be doing wrong about this? Is it a SATA/IDE
> issue, since that's the only difference between the partition I have
> mounted to a folder and the ones which are failing?
>
> More standard info:
> -The SATA drivers I'm using are apparently included with Windows. My
> motherboard manufacturer does not have 64-bit drivers for the SATA
> interface. The motherboard is an nForce 3 chipset (MSI K8N Neo2).
>
> Thanks much,
> Nathan
>

Tony
Fri Dec 01 13:05:49 CST 2006

I am a bit confounded - mostly because I didn't even know this functioanlity
was being implemented, but Nathan tries to copy to the mounted volume via a
directory on a NTFS volume, but he doesn't mention what filesystem the
mounted volume is using. In the Unix world most systems can handle a mounted
NTFS volume, but a plain vanilla Windows installation can not manage
anything but NTFS or FAT! It might have implications to the answer?

Tony. . .


"Charlie Russel - MVP" <charlie@mvKILLALLSPAMMERSps.org> wrote in message
news:989DC5B4-A1C8-4452-ABC1-A01657CD4A94@microsoft.com...
> I don't think this is a SATA or other hardware issue. It _may_ be a drive
> size issue.
>
> The short answer is that mounted volumes are, frankly, not as well
> implemented as I think they should be. I've seen several issues with them.
> As someone coming from the UNIX world, I was very much looking forward to
> this functionality. But I've stopped trying to use it, and just do the
drive
> letter thing.
>
> --
> Charlie.
> http://msmvps.com/xperts64
>
>
> "Nathan Baker" <nathanb@vt.edu> wrote in message
> news:1164986291.285010.217800@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> > Hey all,
> > I recently bought a 300GB SATA drive. It installed beautifully, I got
> > the BIOS configured, Windows found drivers for the device without me
> > even having to do anything, blah blah blah. I used the LDMS to split
> > the drive into two partitions: the first is 200GB and the second is
> > about 80GB (the rest being eaten by the Retail Hard Drive Size
> > Exaggeration Monster).
> >
> > I then mounted the partition into an NTFS folder, and tried to copy
> > some files. Unfortunately, the copy failed almost immediately, saying
> > that the file could not be found. I found this odd, as the file was
> > certainly there. So I tried to delete the folder it created. Explorer
> > acted as if the folder were in use, saying Access Denied.
> >
> > I was very confused about this bizarre behavior. I have another
> > partition on an IDE drive mounted into a folder, and it works great. I
> > tried reformatting the partition again, changing the cluster size,
> > making sure the cable was plugged in well, and (of course) rebooting. I
> > also ran Scandisk, which found no errors.
> >
> > As a last resort, I mapped the drive to a drive letter (rather than a
> > folder). To my great surprise, everything worked. The files I could not
> > previously copy (it is worth noting that it was the same files each
> > time which refused to copy) now copied perfectly, and I could delete
> > the previously undeletable folders. To make sure I wasn't going crazy,
> > I remounted it into a folder. Bam, the same files refused to copy, and
> > the folders gave Access Denied errors again.
> >
> > I really want to mount this partition in a folder. Can anyone give me
> > hints as to what I might be doing wrong about this? Is it a SATA/IDE
> > issue, since that's the only difference between the partition I have
> > mounted to a folder and the ones which are failing?
> >
> > More standard info:
> > -The SATA drivers I'm using are apparently included with Windows. My
> > motherboard manufacturer does not have 64-bit drivers for the SATA
> > interface. The motherboard is an nForce 3 chipset (MSI K8N Neo2).
> >
> > Thanks much,
> > Nathan
> >
>

Dshai
Fri Dec 01 13:21:10 CST 2006

To take that to an additional level, a kilobyte (to stay at a base level) is
not 1000 bytes, it is 2 raised to the 10th power or 1024, hence the
difference between the two numerical bases Theo mentioned.

Dshai

"Theo" <tvf@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:eTTqqSWFHHA.1816@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Nathan Baker wrote:
>> Hey all,
>> I recently bought a 300GB SATA drive. It installed beautifully, I got
>> the BIOS configured, Windows found drivers for the device without me
>> even having to do anything, blah blah blah. I used the LDMS to split
>> the drive into two partitions: the first is 200GB and the second is
>> about 80GB (the rest being eaten by the Retail Hard Drive Size
>> Exaggeration Monster).
>
> There is no "Exaggeration Monster" that eats hard drive space!
>
> The perceived discrepancy comes from the fact that hard drive space is
> expressed in 2 different number bases.
>
> The larger number is the space expressed in decimal, base 10, the system
> you use daily to count your money, etc.
>
> The smaller number is the exact same space expressed in binary, base 2,
> which you don't use on a daily basis.
>
> Example: a Seagate 120 GB Hard drive
>
> in decimal = 120,015,024,128 bytes
>
> in binary it is rounded to 111GB
>
> In Windows Explorer do a right click on a hard drive that has all it's
> space allocated to a single partition. Note the information about the
> hard drive space carefully and you see the decimal size in the center and
> the binary space on the right. The figures given are equal even though
> they are expressed in two different number systems.
>
>

Nathan
Fri Dec 01 15:04:49 CST 2006

Thanks for the responses. I will try to address the issues raised.

Charlie: Thanks for pointing that out. As I say, I have, on two
different computers, mounted NTFS partitions to folders and been quite
satisfied with the behavior. I don't think the issue is a drive size
issue. On my work computer I have a 100GB partition mounted into a
folder with no problems, and one of the partitions I am attempting to
mount here is "only" 80GB.

Tony: Sorry for being unclear. Both the target partition and the source
partition are NTFS. Trying to format a 200GB partition as FAT32 would
be appalling, to say the least! :)

If it were just an issue of this feature being poorly-implemented, I
could accept that (maybe not gracefully, but I could accept it).
However, since I have been using this feature with no problems up until
now, I'm very puzzled as to what is going on now.

I appreciate your time,
Nathan

Nathan
Sat Dec 02 12:52:30 CST 2006

I'm pretty sure this is a Windows issue, not a hardware issue. I tried
mounting a partition from another drive (not the new one) into a folder
on a different drive (also not the new one), and I observed the same
behavior. How I got one partition mounted like this and working I have
no idea, but I'm not going to touch that one, or else it might break
too :)

Any other suggestions will be appreciated, though by searching around
both groups and the web, I haven't found many people taking advantage
of this feature (or if they are, they're not talking about it).

Nathan

Theo
Sat Dec 02 13:47:22 CST 2006

I just mounted partitions into empty folders in both Win XP
(32-bit) and Win x64 on a single SATA drive with 2
partitions and had no problem copying to or from in either
system. I did discover in both Win XP and Win x64 that I
could not mount a volume of my IDE drive into the folder on
the SATA drive in either Win XP nor Win x64. Will try
mounting from the IDE drive later.


Nathan Baker wrote:
> Hey all,
> I recently bought a 300GB SATA drive. It installed beautifully, I got
> the BIOS configured, Windows found drivers for the device without me
> even having to do anything, blah blah blah. I used the LDMS to split
> the drive into two partitions: the first is 200GB and the second is
> about 80GB (the rest being eaten by the Retail Hard Drive Size
> Exaggeration Monster).
>
> I then mounted the partition into an NTFS folder, and tried to copy
> some files. Unfortunately, the copy failed almost immediately, saying
> that the file could not be found. I found this odd, as the file was
> certainly there. So I tried to delete the folder it created. Explorer
> acted as if the folder were in use, saying Access Denied.
>
> I was very confused about this bizarre behavior. I have another
> partition on an IDE drive mounted into a folder, and it works great. I
> tried reformatting the partition again, changing the cluster size,
> making sure the cable was plugged in well, and (of course) rebooting. I
> also ran Scandisk, which found no errors.
>
> As a last resort, I mapped the drive to a drive letter (rather than a
> folder). To my great surprise, everything worked. The files I could not
> previously copy (it is worth noting that it was the same files each
> time which refused to copy) now copied perfectly, and I could delete
> the previously undeletable folders. To make sure I wasn't going crazy,
> I remounted it into a folder. Bam, the same files refused to copy, and
> the folders gave Access Denied errors again.
>
> I really want to mount this partition in a folder. Can anyone give me
> hints as to what I might be doing wrong about this? Is it a SATA/IDE
> issue, since that's the only difference between the partition I have
> mounted to a folder and the ones which are failing?
>
> More standard info:
> -The SATA drivers I'm using are apparently included with Windows. My
> motherboard manufacturer does not have 64-bit drivers for the SATA
> interface. The motherboard is an nForce 3 chipset (MSI K8N Neo2).
>
> Thanks much,
> Nathan
>

Theo
Sat Dec 02 14:34:31 CST 2006

I just mounted partitions into empty folders in both Win XP
(32-bit) and Win x64 on a single SATA drive with 2
partitions and had no problem copying to or from in either
system. I did discover in both Win XP and Win x64 that I
could not mount a volume of my IDE drive into the folder on
the SATA drive in either Win XP nor Win x64. Will try
mounting from the IDE drive later.


Nathan Baker wrote:
> I'm pretty sure this is a Windows issue, not a hardware issue. I tried
> mounting a partition from another drive (not the new one) into a folder
> on a different drive (also not the new one), and I observed the same
> behavior. How I got one partition mounted like this and working I have
> no idea, but I'm not going to touch that one, or else it might break
> too :)
>
> Any other suggestions will be appreciated, though by searching around
> both groups and the web, I haven't found many people taking advantage
> of this feature (or if they are, they're not talking about it).
>
> Nathan
>

Nathan
Sat Dec 02 16:58:17 CST 2006

Thanks for investigating this, Theo. I have successfully mounted IDE -
> IDE when both are connected to the same storage controller. However, I can't get SATA -> IDE to work, and IDE -> IDE also fails when the drives are on different storage controllers (one on my add-in RAID card and one on my onboard IDE).

It is worth noting that I *think* the errors are actually coming from
Explorer, not from the NTFS driver or the kernel. Everything works fine
when I copy or delete from the command line. Thus, I'm going to assume
that Windows Explorer does not properly handle reparse points which
span storage controllers. I have searched for a workaround, but haven't
found anything useful thus far.

I appreciate the assistance in this. I have gone to Google Groups
several times for assistance, and this has by far been the most
helpful. Additional comments are, of course, always welcome :)

Nathan