I am in the process of evaluating Windows XP64 and the 64 bit
capabilities of the new processors. Basically, I run a lot of stuff
on my workstation during the day and my system is SLOOOOOOW.

I am going to use this machine for business and I need to be able to
do administration from the machine. (RDP is fine, MMC with Remote
Desktops to multiple servers). I am going to spend a few bucks on a
system and I want to be able to use it for VMWare to set up lab
servers so I want a lot of RAM although I do not think I will need
mroe than 4GB (unless I am way off on my assessment).

I am setting it up as a workstation which I will use daily. I will
test our applications and drivers and hardware so I want something
which I will not have TOO much trouble finding drivers for so I plan
to build or buy a machine which I know will have hardware currently
compatible with XP64. I have looked at Alienware's site and I noticed
that if I choose a Athlon 64 system (4800+) then I am only able to
choose XP Pro (32 bit). With their Opteron systems, I can get XP64
but a much slower CPU for around the same price (a dual core is an
extra $1200)

I want a high performance system which I am not gonig to run games on.
I don't mind limiting myself as far as drivers go.

I do run Linux from time to time, and I am assuming that there are NO
issues with Linux drivers, right? LOL I am sure the Linux-only guys
will say so. I figure if I spec the system to run Windows XP64 then
it should run Linux just as easily or better.

I will probably run Windows primarily instead of Linux just so I can
run MMC and Agent 3.0 natively. I can always put Linux in a VM.

Anyone have advice (Duron or Athlon)? How do the speeds compare?

Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by J

J
Thu Sep 29 21:33:18 CDT 2005

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 16:19:12 -0400, Mike Smith <mike_z@excite.com>
wrote:

>I am in the process of evaluating Windows XP64 and the 64 bit
>capabilities of the new processors. Basically, I run a lot of stuff
>on my workstation during the day and my system is SLOOOOOOW.
>
>I am going to use this machine for business and I need to be able to
>do administration from the machine. (RDP is fine, MMC with Remote
>Desktops to multiple servers). I am going to spend a few bucks on a
>system and I want to be able to use it for VMWare to set up lab
>servers so I want a lot of RAM although I do not think I will need
>mroe than 4GB (unless I am way off on my assessment).
>
>I am setting it up as a workstation which I will use daily. I will
>test our applications and drivers and hardware so I want something
>which I will not have TOO much trouble finding drivers for so I plan
>to build or buy a machine which I know will have hardware currently
>compatible with XP64. I have looked at Alienware's site and I noticed
>that if I choose a Athlon 64 system (4800+) then I am only able to
>choose XP Pro (32 bit). With their Opteron systems, I can get XP64
>but a much slower CPU for around the same price (a dual core is an
>extra $1200)
>
>I want a high performance system which I am not gonig to run games on.
>I don't mind limiting myself as far as drivers go.
>
>I do run Linux from time to time, and I am assuming that there are NO
>issues with Linux drivers, right? LOL I am sure the Linux-only guys
>will say so. I figure if I spec the system to run Windows XP64 then
>it should run Linux just as easily or better.
>
>I will probably run Windows primarily instead of Linux just so I can
>run MMC and Agent 3.0 natively. I can always put Linux in a VM.
>
>Anyone have advice (Duron or Athlon)? How do the speeds compare?

I'm surprised that there have been no opinions expressed about this
post. Although, I have heard that there is some sort of conference
going on this week in Redmond that a number of knowledgeable folks in
this newsgroup were attending so that may be a factor.

On a side note, I notece that you also post through Giganews. Since I
signed up with Comcast and started using their Giganews newsfeed, the
number of responses to my posts has dropped significantly which makes
me wonder if Giganews is being filtered out (either by ISPs or users)
due to abuse from their servers or simply because Giganews has bad
peering. It's as if one out 10 posts or so makes it out to newsgroups
in general. My experience was much defferent with Supernews and local
ISP newservers.

Have you had a similar or unsimilar experience?


Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Wayne

Wayne
Thu Sep 29 21:44:08 CDT 2005

"Mike Smith" <mike_z@excite.com> wrote in message
news:clulj1heqh8p5akrpahq0tac8d8m7331k3@4ax.com
> I am in the process of evaluating Windows XP64 and the 64 bit
> capabilities of the new processors. Basically, I run a lot of stuff
> on my workstation during the day and my system is SLOOOOOOW.
>
> I am going to use this machine for business and I need to be able to
> do administration from the machine. (RDP is fine, MMC with Remote
> Desktops to multiple servers). I am going to spend a few bucks on a
> system and I want to be able to use it for VMWare to set up lab
> servers so I want a lot of RAM although I do not think I will need
> mroe than 4GB (unless I am way off on my assessment).
>
> I am setting it up as a workstation which I will use daily. I will
> test our applications and drivers and hardware so I want something
> which I will not have TOO much trouble finding drivers for so I plan
> to build or buy a machine which I know will have hardware currently
> compatible with XP64. I have looked at Alienware's site and I noticed
> that if I choose a Athlon 64 system (4800+) then I am only able to
> choose XP Pro (32 bit). With their Opteron systems, I can get XP64
> but a much slower CPU for around the same price (a dual core is an
> extra $1200)
>
> I want a high performance system which I am not gonig to run games on.
> I don't mind limiting myself as far as drivers go.
>
> I do run Linux from time to time, and I am assuming that there are NO
> issues with Linux drivers, right? LOL I am sure the Linux-only guys
> will say so. I figure if I spec the system to run Windows XP64 then
> it should run Linux just as easily or better.
>
> I will probably run Windows primarily instead of Linux just so I can
> run MMC and Agent 3.0 natively. I can always put Linux in a VM.
>
> Anyone have advice (Duron or Athlon)? How do the speeds compare?

Ok, here is what I think you would love to have, based on what your wrote:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127223#DetailSpecs

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103529

The motherboard can use as much as 8GB of DDRAM.

--

-------------------------------------
Wayne Wastier
Z-80 - AMD 64 3200+



Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Mike

Mike
Fri Sep 30 10:02:08 CDT 2005

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:33:15 -0700, J. Eric Durbin
<zyzygy@plenipotentiary.com.invalid> wrote:


>I'm surprised that there have been no opinions expressed about this
>post. Although, I have heard that there is some sort of conference
>going on this week in Redmond that a number of knowledgeable folks in
>this newsgroup were attending so that may be a factor.

I originally posted in alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64 and several people
recommended I post here because there were a lot of knowledgeable
people here. If those guys who are in Redmond are geeks like I am,
then I would expect a laptop/broadband access at the hotel so I doubt
that is the reason :-)

>On a side note, I notece that you also post through Giganews. Since I
>signed up with Comcast and started using their Giganews newsfeed, the
>number of responses to my posts has dropped significantly which makes
>me wonder if Giganews is being filtered out (either by ISPs or users)
>due to abuse from their servers or simply because Giganews has bad
>peering. It's as if one out 10 posts or so makes it out to newsgroups
>in general. My experience was much defferent with Supernews and local
>ISP newservers.

I used that Comcast deal for a while but after I update my headers, my
allocated 1 GB was used up and I couldn't do anything until the next
month. It sounded like a really good deal for the discussion groups I
frequent They do not do that when you pay Giganews direct for usage.
If they billed like the do with comcast then it would be a ripoff. I
wish Giganews would just offer a discount to Comcast subscribers and
eliminate that hardly usable free stuff. I heard they were going to
change the header policy but I pay for it now anyway so I don't really
care anymore.

I have to say that Giganews is probably one of the better services out
there but it may be true that Comcast is at fault. I wouldn't expect
them to purposely spoil the giganews thing, but their lack of
technical knowledge leaves a lot to be desired.

I have used supernews and a couple others in the past. A lot of ISPs
don't even carry Usenet feeds anymore and some don't even know what
Usenet is. It is sad, but at teh same time it is nice to not have the
AOLers with their "get rich quick" posts every day anymore.

>Have you had a similar or unsimilar experience?

I have only recently subscribed to Giganews (2 months ago) but I was
curious if I have been seeing enough headers. I have noticed a drop
in responses to my messages in several groups. I only use Giganews so
I guess we need to ask some non-Giganews customers if they have
noticed the same. Have you noticed an overall drop in the number of
headers in groups like this?

Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Mike

Mike
Fri Sep 30 10:05:50 CDT 2005

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:44:08 -0500, "Wayne Wastier"
<waynewastier@nospam.charter.net> wrote:

>
>Ok, here is what I think you would love to have, based on what your wrote:
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127223#DetailSpecs
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103529
>
>The motherboard can use as much as 8GB of DDRAM.

Do you have any opinion on dual core versions? I realize that many
apps aren't currently supporting it, but I do have a few
multi-processor apps that I run which I think will be fooled into
thinking that I have multiple CPUs. Maybe with the help of a patch.
At some point, there will be support and I plan on using this machine
for a while.

Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Wayne

Wayne
Fri Sep 30 12:21:44 CDT 2005

"Mike Smith" <mike_z@excite.com> wrote in message
news:ftkqj1loo1l7tqatn1320hmttoccgc1utk@4ax.com
> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:44:08 -0500, "Wayne Wastier"
> <waynewastier@nospam.charter.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Ok, here is what I think you would love to have, based on what your
>> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127223#DetailSpecs
>>
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103529
>>
>> The motherboard can use as much as 8GB of DDRAM.
>
> Do you have any opinion on dual core versions? I realize that many
> apps aren't currently supporting it, but I do have a few
> multi-processor apps that I run which I think will be fooled into
> thinking that I have multiple CPUs. Maybe with the help of a patch.
> At some point, there will be support and I plan on using this machine
> for a while.

Yes. Newegg has several dual core AMD 64 bit CPU's. While they are good, I
don't know if the motherboard that I posted about supports them. Also, they
are expensive at the moment. It is a trade off right now, dual core and
less DDRAM, or single core and more DDRAM. (unless you opt for a more
expensive motherboard, and more expensive Registered DDRAM if you use a dual
core Opteron.)

The whole thing boils down to how much money you have to spend. I would
always recommend an AMD solution over Intel, especially when 64/32 bit
processing is concerned. However, if dual processing is a major concern for
you, Intel is the cheaper route to go at this time. (that is if you don't
already have a motherboard that supports AMD's dual core cpu's.)

--

-------------------------------------
Wayne Wastier
Z-80 - AMD 64 3200+



Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Tim

Tim
Sun Oct 02 18:05:21 CDT 2005

I'd look at an Asus A8N-e motherboard if graphics performance was not The
big thing for you as it is mot an SLI system. There are several SLI options
if graphics is really important IE A8N-SLI (Premium, Deluxe, and original).

However most if not all Atlhon 64 / X2 / FX processor motherboards seem to
be limited to 4GB RAM which is a tad annoying.

The processor options you have are (ignoring Intel): Athlon 64 single core
family, X2 family, and FX55 / 57. You can either go for performance (FX57 or
lesser model), low cost (Athlon 64), or Dual core (X2) = smooth system with
medium performance. If you want a long life system then I suggest you build
with some quality criteria EG low noise, not cost cutting on PSU etc, and an
Upgrade Path planned EG when FX57 price drops to X, upgrade CPU...

The other processor options are Opteron 2xx family for dual processor (and
dual core options = total 4 CPU's) - few workstation users would be able to
utilise quad CPU's unless they have a specific workload that benefits well
from this. Opterons offer the advantage of being able to have considerably
more RAM than the above CPU's since for some reason all mobo's released for
the above have a limit of 4GB. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I am
sure you can build an Opteron system using a single 2xx processor then
upgrade later (requires an XP repair install to change the HAL last I knew).
Initially this will cost a tad more for the motherboard and RAM options may
be more expensive, however prices only come down long term coupled with the
ability to ADD another CPU and lots more RAM your system will be able to
grow as budget permits and needs demand. Unfortunately, fast Opterons are
not cheap...

My personal preference is the Asus A8N-e for the Althon 64 bit families as
the extra expense of SLI simply is not needed by me, nor do I need to go
beyond 2 CPU's. There are several manufacturers of workstation class
motherbaords for Opterons including Iwill.

Dual core / dual processor systems IMHO have a longer life simply because
they are so smooth to use. As a S/W dev, a lot of the tools I use are
already mutlithreaded and make good use of duals, so having a dual means it
is very difficult for one person to clobber a machine although it happens,
but while you are, you still get a very smooth interaction.

Windows XP and Server utilise the 2 cpu's / cores well, balancing workload
dynamically so the user always has the 'best' experience (IO devices
permitting - don't use IDE disc drives, SATA is much better).

If you want pure [single cpu] speed, get an FX57 (or perhaps FX55 if they
are still available). Otherwise X2 is IMHO an excellent way to go if you
either have multithreading systems or run mutliple active tasks
concurrently. You could get a single core Athlong 64 "budget" model and
upgrade later to an FX or X2, but if your like me I never get round to
reselling old parts.... I just buy new systems.

New opteron chips are on their way to market. A new 939 pin opteron chip has
been released so I am not too sure of the implications here (non registered
ram perhaps?). It would be a good idea to review total long term RAM needs
and look at the implications in terms of system life.

see www.amd.com/pricing
Compared to the X2 pricing, many of the Opteron chips are quite reasonable,
however clock speed will be important.

HTH
- Tim




"Wayne Wastier" <waynewastier@nospam.charter.net> wrote in message
news:%23qT60NexFHA.3000@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> "Mike Smith" <mike_z@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:ftkqj1loo1l7tqatn1320hmttoccgc1utk@4ax.com
>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:44:08 -0500, "Wayne Wastier"
>> <waynewastier@nospam.charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ok, here is what I think you would love to have, based on what your
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127223#DetailSpecs
>>>
>>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103529
>>>
>>> The motherboard can use as much as 8GB of DDRAM.
>>
>> Do you have any opinion on dual core versions? I realize that many
>> apps aren't currently supporting it, but I do have a few
>> multi-processor apps that I run which I think will be fooled into
>> thinking that I have multiple CPUs. Maybe with the help of a patch.
>> At some point, there will be support and I plan on using this machine
>> for a while.
>
> Yes. Newegg has several dual core AMD 64 bit CPU's. While they are good,
> I don't know if the motherboard that I posted about supports them. Also,
> they are expensive at the moment. It is a trade off right now, dual core
> and less DDRAM, or single core and more DDRAM. (unless you opt for a more
> expensive motherboard, and more expensive Registered DDRAM if you use a
> dual core Opteron.)
>
> The whole thing boils down to how much money you have to spend. I would
> always recommend an AMD solution over Intel, especially when 64/32 bit
> processing is concerned. However, if dual processing is a major concern
> for you, Intel is the cheaper route to go at this time. (that is if you
> don't already have a motherboard that supports AMD's dual core cpu's.)
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------
> Wayne Wastier
> Z-80 - AMD 64 3200+
>



Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by PJB

PJB
Mon Oct 03 03:30:00 CDT 2005

Hi Mike,

Opteron chip is much faster. I use 2 and it's nearly equilivant to 4
processors. All 32 bit software I am testing works Adobe, Macromedia, DVD,
eTrust 7.1.
Runs very very fast. About to add up to 8Gb Ram and another SATA drive. The
only thing I needed to do was d/l x64 nVidia driver for the on-board audio.
I used a Tyan 940 m/board 2895.
It gets pretty damn hot and requires a server case with 4 fans min.
--
Peter Banks
Wellington, NZ


"Tim" <Tim@NoSpam.com> wrote in message news:dhpp38$d67$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> I'd look at an Asus A8N-e motherboard if graphics performance was not The
> big thing for you as it is mot an SLI system. There are several SLI
> options if graphics is really important IE A8N-SLI (Premium, Deluxe, and
> original).
>
> However most if not all Atlhon 64 / X2 / FX processor motherboards seem to
> be limited to 4GB RAM which is a tad annoying.
>
> The processor options you have are (ignoring Intel): Athlon 64 single core
> family, X2 family, and FX55 / 57. You can either go for performance (FX57
> or lesser model), low cost (Athlon 64), or Dual core (X2) = smooth system
> with medium performance. If you want a long life system then I suggest you
> build with some quality criteria EG low noise, not cost cutting on PSU
> etc, and an Upgrade Path planned EG when FX57 price drops to X, upgrade
> CPU...
>
> The other processor options are Opteron 2xx family for dual processor (and
> dual core options = total 4 CPU's) - few workstation users would be able
> to utilise quad CPU's unless they have a specific workload that benefits
> well from this. Opterons offer the advantage of being able to have
> considerably more RAM than the above CPU's since for some reason all
> mobo's released for the above have a limit of 4GB. Someone correct me if I
> am wrong, but I am sure you can build an Opteron system using a single 2xx
> processor then upgrade later (requires an XP repair install to change the
> HAL last I knew). Initially this will cost a tad more for the motherboard
> and RAM options may be more expensive, however prices only come down long
> term coupled with the ability to ADD another CPU and lots more RAM your
> system will be able to grow as budget permits and needs demand.
> Unfortunately, fast Opterons are not cheap...
>
> My personal preference is the Asus A8N-e for the Althon 64 bit families as
> the extra expense of SLI simply is not needed by me, nor do I need to go
> beyond 2 CPU's. There are several manufacturers of workstation class
> motherbaords for Opterons including Iwill.
>
> Dual core / dual processor systems IMHO have a longer life simply because
> they are so smooth to use. As a S/W dev, a lot of the tools I use are
> already mutlithreaded and make good use of duals, so having a dual means
> it is very difficult for one person to clobber a machine although it
> happens, but while you are, you still get a very smooth interaction.
>
> Windows XP and Server utilise the 2 cpu's / cores well, balancing workload
> dynamically so the user always has the 'best' experience (IO devices
> permitting - don't use IDE disc drives, SATA is much better).
>
> If you want pure [single cpu] speed, get an FX57 (or perhaps FX55 if they
> are still available). Otherwise X2 is IMHO an excellent way to go if you
> either have multithreading systems or run mutliple active tasks
> concurrently. You could get a single core Athlong 64 "budget" model and
> upgrade later to an FX or X2, but if your like me I never get round to
> reselling old parts.... I just buy new systems.
>
> New opteron chips are on their way to market. A new 939 pin opteron chip
> has been released so I am not too sure of the implications here (non
> registered ram perhaps?). It would be a good idea to review total long
> term RAM needs and look at the implications in terms of system life.
>
> see www.amd.com/pricing
> Compared to the X2 pricing, many of the Opteron chips are quite
> reasonable, however clock speed will be important.
>
> HTH
> - Tim
>
>
>
>
> "Wayne Wastier" <waynewastier@nospam.charter.net> wrote in message
> news:%23qT60NexFHA.3000@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> "Mike Smith" <mike_z@excite.com> wrote in message
>> news:ftkqj1loo1l7tqatn1320hmttoccgc1utk@4ax.com
>>> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:44:08 -0500, "Wayne Wastier"
>>> <waynewastier@nospam.charter.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ok, here is what I think you would love to have, based on what your
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127223#DetailSpecs
>>>>
>>>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103529
>>>>
>>>> The motherboard can use as much as 8GB of DDRAM.
>>>
>>> Do you have any opinion on dual core versions? I realize that many
>>> apps aren't currently supporting it, but I do have a few
>>> multi-processor apps that I run which I think will be fooled into
>>> thinking that I have multiple CPUs. Maybe with the help of a patch.
>>> At some point, there will be support and I plan on using this machine
>>> for a while.
>>
>> Yes. Newegg has several dual core AMD 64 bit CPU's. While they are good,
>> I don't know if the motherboard that I posted about supports them. Also,
>> they are expensive at the moment. It is a trade off right now, dual core
>> and less DDRAM, or single core and more DDRAM. (unless you opt for a more
>> expensive motherboard, and more expensive Registered DDRAM if you use a
>> dual core Opteron.)
>>
>> The whole thing boils down to how much money you have to spend. I would
>> always recommend an AMD solution over Intel, especially when 64/32 bit
>> processing is concerned. However, if dual processing is a major concern
>> for you, Intel is the cheaper route to go at this time. (that is if you
>> don't already have a motherboard that supports AMD's dual core cpu's.)
>>
>> --
>>
>> -------------------------------------
>> Wayne Wastier
>> Z-80 - AMD 64 3200+
>>
>
>



Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Mike

Mike
Mon Oct 03 10:34:58 CDT 2005

On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:05:21 +1300, "Tim" <Tim@NoSpam.com> wrote:

>Dual core / dual processor systems IMHO have a longer life simply because
>they are so smooth to use. As a S/W dev, a lot of the tools I use are
>already mutlithreaded and make good use of duals, so having a dual means it
>is very difficult for one person to clobber a machine although it happens,
>but while you are, you still get a very smooth interaction.

I am going to have VMWare installed on it and running:

Most of the time-

-1 Linux VM

-3 VMs of Windows XP (Accounting Applications for remote users,
Crapware like Quickbooks requires admin rights which I am not
comfortable giving on a Terminal Server.)

Some of the time-

-One or two VMs of Windows 2003 Server from time to time for
lab/testing

-Vista betas/release for software compatability testing

-other VMs from time to time

I am figuring on 4GB RAM to start but that may be a little low. My
biggest fear is finding out that I need more than 4GB but can't
upgrade because of hardware limitations. I want things to run smooth
so dual core seems tempting.

>Windows XP and Server utilise the 2 cpu's / cores well, balancing workload
>dynamically so the user always has the 'best' experience (IO devices
>permitting - don't use IDE disc drives, SATA is much better).

I have a bunch of SATA drives which I am going to use, maybe pick up a
RAID controller.

Thanks for the info. I am leaning towards a faster dual core system,
just need to decide on RAM. I think more than 4 GB will be overkill.

I was thinking there were two AMD solutions:

Opteron
Athlon64

but where does the FX stuff come in?

Thanks

Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Tim

Tim
Mon Oct 03 21:25:11 CDT 2005

<snip>

> I was thinking there were two AMD solutions:
>
> Opteron
> Athlon64
>
> but where does the FX stuff come in?
>
> Thanks

IFIW, I would short list Opteron then X2 (the dual core Athlon 64's).

The FX chip is AMD's equivalent of the Intel Extreme Edition chips. They are
the fastest single core CPU's they make and I believe have a larger cache.
Benchmarks indicate they are screamers and out perform all else, but if you
look at the price list previously posted they are *expensive*. FX is perhaps
ideal people that actually need *best* single core performance for their
applications.

If memory is a concern and you are likley to have two or more VM's
concurrently active (plus server applications EG SQL Server, Exchange etc.)
of 1GB each (average) then 4GB will run out very quickly. I haven't used
VMWare for a while (using Virtual Server and sometimes Virtual PC on my
current x32 desktop), but would expect it is Memory Friendly - IE it can
roll out a large VM to allow you to over-subscribe memory for another VM /
App?

As a software dev also, the value of VM's for testing and running server /
other OS for Dev is immense, so personally I would be leaning towards an
Opteron system for large memory support. Remember you should be able to buy
the mobo, say 2 x 1GB ram sticks* to get started & 1 CPU (perhaps single
core) and be up and running for least cost and a long life. Add RAM and
upgrade to dual core and or second CPU later.

* buy what you intend to carry on with, IE get something that is
recommended, to spec, on the HQL, and cost effective. Personally I never see
value in overclocking so 'To Spec' is all you need. Registered memory is
less fussy (apparently) about adding more - you can just add it, but I would
start out with 1 make / model, choose it carefully and stick with it. Make
sure you download the motherbaord manual before purchase and check what is
said about RAM installation - what combinations are allowed, what is not, if
there is an HQL for RAM, if you can run on a single CPU, what is required
etc.

Be careful to size your PSU correctly and please don't get a cheapo. The
number of problems people of on higher performance systems due to low
quality PSU's that are overrated, or PSU's that are too small is
astonishing.

I find that CPU performance is not the most crucial thing in s/w dev.
Reliability is #1 for me** so I use RAID 1 discs everywhere, and Asus
boards, which are usually rated as the best consumer board, with no cheap
shyte plugged into them to drag them down. Tyan, Iwill and others could be
considered "server class" and so many class them as better than Asus, but I
have heard horror stories :) Check reviews before making a purchase
decision. The single biggest improvement on my 'workstation' desktop was to
install XP SP2 - this increased file IO performance hugely. A hardware RAID
controller will help even more, but this would need to be a PCIe or PCIx
device so that the PCI bus is not a point of contention. There are new SATA
RAID controllers for PCIe and the latest Asus A32 something motherboard (see
www.asus.com.tw ) supports a PCIe x16 channel for non graphics use. There is
an excellent selection of SCSI and SATA enabled motherboards from Tyan etc.

** its nice to have a coffee sometimes :)

RAM can easily be a performance issue on development systems. Rolling things
around in virtual memory is so last century that it is always the best
option to plug in more RAM when needed, so I would tend towards a system
that does not limit you to 4GB. IE that only really leaves Opteron - if 4GB
is seen as a short term requirement.

Keeping in mind that this is a 64bit news group and that you are likely to
be using that as the base OS for your VM's, it really becomes a matter of
Opteron or not, then driver availability for any special controllers you may
wish to acquire is an issue - if one ignores expense.

Note that Opterons are NUMA systems, so rolling VM's between CPU's because
of RAM is not a good idea. (IE RAM is adjacent to a CPU in a NUMA system -
if a process changes CPU then either the process memory has to be piped
through the HT bus or moved). A NUMA aware OS avoids this when you have dual
CPU's (XP SP2 upwards I believe), but if you have dual CPU's and RAM hanging
off only 1 CPU then performance will suffer. Someone correct me if I don't
have that quite right.

- Tim






Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by PJB

PJB
Tue Oct 04 04:22:58 CDT 2005

You can put Ram unevenly on each CPU on a dual board, and yes you can run 1
CPU in a dual board. The Tyan 2895 have 4 mem slots for each CPU, making
total of 16Gb with 2Gb mem chips.
I did read that 4Gb of Ram does cause problems with Outlook. But I can't
remember what the problem was, it's somewhere in this newsgroup.
--
Peter Banks
Wellington, NZ

"Tim" <Tim@NoSpam.com> wrote in message news:dhsp5u$uvn$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> <snip>
>
>> I was thinking there were two AMD solutions:
>>
>> Opteron
>> Athlon64
>>
>> but where does the FX stuff come in?
>>
>> Thanks
>
> IFIW, I would short list Opteron then X2 (the dual core Athlon 64's).
>
> The FX chip is AMD's equivalent of the Intel Extreme Edition chips. They
> are the fastest single core CPU's they make and I believe have a larger
> cache. Benchmarks indicate they are screamers and out perform all else,
> but if you look at the price list previously posted they are *expensive*.
> FX is perhaps ideal people that actually need *best* single core
> performance for their applications.
>
> If memory is a concern and you are likley to have two or more VM's
> concurrently active (plus server applications EG SQL Server, Exchange
> etc.) of 1GB each (average) then 4GB will run out very quickly. I haven't
> used VMWare for a while (using Virtual Server and sometimes Virtual PC on
> my current x32 desktop), but would expect it is Memory Friendly - IE it
> can roll out a large VM to allow you to over-subscribe memory for another
> VM / App?
>
> As a software dev also, the value of VM's for testing and running server /
> other OS for Dev is immense, so personally I would be leaning towards an
> Opteron system for large memory support. Remember you should be able to
> buy the mobo, say 2 x 1GB ram sticks* to get started & 1 CPU (perhaps
> single core) and be up and running for least cost and a long life. Add RAM
> and upgrade to dual core and or second CPU later.
>
> * buy what you intend to carry on with, IE get something that is
> recommended, to spec, on the HQL, and cost effective. Personally I never
> see value in overclocking so 'To Spec' is all you need. Registered memory
> is less fussy (apparently) about adding more - you can just add it, but I
> would start out with 1 make / model, choose it carefully and stick with
> it. Make sure you download the motherbaord manual before purchase and
> check what is said about RAM installation - what combinations are allowed,
> what is not, if there is an HQL for RAM, if you can run on a single CPU,
> what is required etc.
>
> Be careful to size your PSU correctly and please don't get a cheapo. The
> number of problems people of on higher performance systems due to low
> quality PSU's that are overrated, or PSU's that are too small is
> astonishing.
>
> I find that CPU performance is not the most crucial thing in s/w dev.
> Reliability is #1 for me** so I use RAID 1 discs everywhere, and Asus
> boards, which are usually rated as the best consumer board, with no cheap
> shyte plugged into them to drag them down. Tyan, Iwill and others could be
> considered "server class" and so many class them as better than Asus, but
> I have heard horror stories :) Check reviews before making a purchase
> decision. The single biggest improvement on my 'workstation' desktop was
> to install XP SP2 - this increased file IO performance hugely. A hardware
> RAID controller will help even more, but this would need to be a PCIe or
> PCIx device so that the PCI bus is not a point of contention. There are
> new SATA RAID controllers for PCIe and the latest Asus A32 something
> motherboard (see www.asus.com.tw ) supports a PCIe x16 channel for non
> graphics use. There is an excellent selection of SCSI and SATA enabled
> motherboards from Tyan etc.
>
> ** its nice to have a coffee sometimes :)
>
> RAM can easily be a performance issue on development systems. Rolling
> things around in virtual memory is so last century that it is always the
> best option to plug in more RAM when needed, so I would tend towards a
> system that does not limit you to 4GB. IE that only really leaves
> Opteron - if 4GB is seen as a short term requirement.
>
> Keeping in mind that this is a 64bit news group and that you are likely to
> be using that as the base OS for your VM's, it really becomes a matter of
> Opteron or not, then driver availability for any special controllers you
> may wish to acquire is an issue - if one ignores expense.
>
> Note that Opterons are NUMA systems, so rolling VM's between CPU's because
> of RAM is not a good idea. (IE RAM is adjacent to a CPU in a NUMA system -
> if a process changes CPU then either the process memory has to be piped
> through the HT bus or moved). A NUMA aware OS avoids this when you have
> dual CPU's (XP SP2 upwards I believe), but if you have dual CPU's and RAM
> hanging off only 1 CPU then performance will suffer. Someone correct me if
> I don't have that quite right.
>
> - Tim
>
>
>
>
>



Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Charlie

Charlie
Tue Oct 04 10:32:05 CDT 2005

There is a known problem with Outlook 2003 on machines that have >2GB of
RAM. You will need to contact MS Customer Support to ask for the hotfix. The
relevant KB Article is: #896253.

See http://msmvps.com/xperts64/archive/2005/08/03/61319.aspx

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/xperts64

PJB wrote:
> You can put Ram unevenly on each CPU on a dual board, and yes you can run
> 1 CPU in a dual board. The Tyan 2895 have 4 mem slots for each CPU, making
> total of 16Gb with 2Gb mem chips.
> I did read that 4Gb of Ram does cause problems with Outlook. But I can't
> remember what the problem was, it's somewhere in this newsgroup.
>
> "Tim" <Tim@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
> news:dhsp5u$uvn$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I was thinking there were two AMD solutions:
>>>
>>> Opteron
>>> Athlon64
>>>
>>> but where does the FX stuff come in?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>> IFIW, I would short list Opteron then X2 (the dual core Athlon 64's).
>>
>> The FX chip is AMD's equivalent of the Intel Extreme Edition chips. They
>> are the fastest single core CPU's they make and I believe have a larger
>> cache. Benchmarks indicate they are screamers and out perform all else,
>> but if you look at the price list previously posted they are *expensive*.
>> FX is perhaps ideal people that actually need *best* single core
>> performance for their applications.
>>
>> If memory is a concern and you are likley to have two or more VM's
>> concurrently active (plus server applications EG SQL Server, Exchange
>> etc.) of 1GB each (average) then 4GB will run out very quickly. I haven't
>> used VMWare for a while (using Virtual Server and sometimes Virtual PC on
>> my current x32 desktop), but would expect it is Memory Friendly - IE it
>> can roll out a large VM to allow you to over-subscribe memory for another
>> VM / App?
>>
>> As a software dev also, the value of VM's for testing and running server
>> / other OS for Dev is immense, so personally I would be leaning towards
>> an Opteron system for large memory support. Remember you should be able
>> to buy the mobo, say 2 x 1GB ram sticks* to get started & 1 CPU (perhaps
>> single core) and be up and running for least cost and a long life. Add
>> RAM and upgrade to dual core and or second CPU later.
>>
>> * buy what you intend to carry on with, IE get something that is
>> recommended, to spec, on the HQL, and cost effective. Personally I never
>> see value in overclocking so 'To Spec' is all you need. Registered memory
>> is less fussy (apparently) about adding more - you can just add it, but I
>> would start out with 1 make / model, choose it carefully and stick with
>> it. Make sure you download the motherbaord manual before purchase and
>> check what is said about RAM installation - what combinations are
>> allowed, what is not, if there is an HQL for RAM, if you can run on a
>> single CPU, what is required etc.
>>
>> Be careful to size your PSU correctly and please don't get a cheapo. The
>> number of problems people of on higher performance systems due to low
>> quality PSU's that are overrated, or PSU's that are too small is
>> astonishing.
>>
>> I find that CPU performance is not the most crucial thing in s/w dev.
>> Reliability is #1 for me** so I use RAID 1 discs everywhere, and Asus
>> boards, which are usually rated as the best consumer board, with no cheap
>> shyte plugged into them to drag them down. Tyan, Iwill and others could
>> be considered "server class" and so many class them as better than Asus,
>> but I have heard horror stories :) Check reviews before making a purchase
>> decision. The single biggest improvement on my 'workstation' desktop was
>> to install XP SP2 - this increased file IO performance hugely. A hardware
>> RAID controller will help even more, but this would need to be a PCIe or
>> PCIx device so that the PCI bus is not a point of contention. There are
>> new SATA RAID controllers for PCIe and the latest Asus A32 something
>> motherboard (see www.asus.com.tw ) supports a PCIe x16 channel for non
>> graphics use. There is an excellent selection of SCSI and SATA enabled
>> motherboards from Tyan etc.
>>
>> ** its nice to have a coffee sometimes :)
>>
>> RAM can easily be a performance issue on development systems. Rolling
>> things around in virtual memory is so last century that it is always the
>> best option to plug in more RAM when needed, so I would tend towards a
>> system that does not limit you to 4GB. IE that only really leaves
>> Opteron - if 4GB is seen as a short term requirement.
>>
>> Keeping in mind that this is a 64bit news group and that you are likely
>> to be using that as the base OS for your VM's, it really becomes a
>> matter of Opteron or not, then driver availability for any special
>> controllers you may wish to acquire is an issue - if one ignores expense.
>>
>> Note that Opterons are NUMA systems, so rolling VM's between CPU's
>> because of RAM is not a good idea. (IE RAM is adjacent to a CPU in a
>> NUMA system - if a process changes CPU then either the process memory
>> has to be piped through the HT bus or moved). A NUMA aware OS avoids
>> this when you have dual CPU's (XP SP2 upwards I believe), but if you
>> have dual CPU's and RAM hanging off only 1 CPU then performance will
>> suffer. Someone correct me if I don't have that quite right.
>>
>> - Tim



Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Mike

Mike
Wed Oct 05 09:37:51 CDT 2005

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:25:11 +1300, "Tim" <Tim@NoSpam.com> wrote:

>through the HT bus or moved). A NUMA aware OS avoids this when you have dual
>CPU's (XP SP2 upwards I believe), but if you have dual CPU's and RAM hanging
>off only 1 CPU then performance will suffer. Someone correct me if I don't
>have that quite right.
>
>- Tim

Hey Tim

Thanks a bunch. I think you have me sold on Opteron. I am doing this
because I have little office space for multiple machines and I need a
lab for servers and workstations to play with. Many times, I set
something up as a proof of concept of a sort then it ends up being
"tested" for way too long and I have to come up with a game plan to
migrate them somewhere else to free up resources. So I think I want
to leave my options open for more than 4GB. My VMWare stuff is more
lab than production, but that could change as I seem to have a lot of
Windows XP machines dedicated to single tasks like Data Transfer
Stations, Fax Servers, and Remote Desktops which have crummy software
which require admin rights.

Mike

Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Tim

Tim
Wed Oct 05 19:47:27 CDT 2005

Neat. I hope you don't go over budget... but when I look at budgets like
that I think "in two years I would otherwise be tossing this out" then in
four years say to my self "it paid for itself in the first year, and again
and again"....

VMWare / VS / VPC are one of the most important tools in a Dev arsenal IMHO.
Its nice to be able to fire up a virgin Win95a and the default browser
install of the day and test out an ASP.Net secure site on a cruddy old
browser (and linux installs, I can't do MAC OS - can VMWare?) and verify the
site renders acceptable (with a lot of degradation) and works.

So, dumb question time. Can VMWare run any of the older MAC OS on x86 / x64?

One last thought: Don't forget that Pacifica and the other Intel
Virtualisation technologies are coming. I believe some of the announced
Intel chips already support it. Maybe hold off for a few months or perhaps
get that single core x64 3200 chip and pray the motherboard will support the
new CPU's... but then the VMWare upgrade costs may make this totally
uneconomic.

- Tim




"Mike Smith" <mike_z@excite.com> wrote in message
news:evo7k1tufiqs5opn4llifipcmudidvb3pg@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 15:25:11 +1300, "Tim" <Tim@NoSpam.com> wrote:
>
>>through the HT bus or moved). A NUMA aware OS avoids this when you have
>>dual
>>CPU's (XP SP2 upwards I believe), but if you have dual CPU's and RAM
>>hanging
>>off only 1 CPU then performance will suffer. Someone correct me if I don't
>>have that quite right.
>>
>>- Tim
>
> Hey Tim
>
> Thanks a bunch. I think you have me sold on Opteron. I am doing this
> because I have little office space for multiple machines and I need a
> lab for servers and workstations to play with. Many times, I set
> something up as a proof of concept of a sort then it ends up being
> "tested" for way too long and I have to come up with a game plan to
> migrate them somewhere else to free up resources. So I think I want
> to leave my options open for more than 4GB. My VMWare stuff is more
> lab than production, but that could change as I seem to have a lot of
> Windows XP machines dedicated to single tasks like Data Transfer
> Stations, Fax Servers, and Remote Desktops which have crummy software
> which require admin rights.
>
> Mike



Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Thomas

Thomas
Thu Oct 06 15:31:23 CDT 2005

Mike Smith wrote:
> Thanks a bunch. I think you have me sold on Opteron. I am doing this
> because I have little office space for multiple machines and I need a
> lab for servers and workstations to play with. Many times, I set
> something up as a proof of concept of a sort then it ends up being
> "tested" for way too long and I have to come up with a game plan to
> migrate them somewhere else to free up resources. So I think I want
> to leave my options open for more than 4GB.

Yes, I would agree here. Even with just one simple VMware session and
very light development use, I found 512 MB were braking the system down
to an unuseable snail pace. I would calculate 1 GB for each session now,
possibly more for "heavy duty" stuff.

I have an Athlon64 at home and an Opteron server at work, and they are
both great. If you find an Athlon64 solution that supports 8 GB of
memory, that might be the way to go. For your use, I would recommend the
X2.

Earlier in the thread you asked about Linux drivers. For all drivers
available in source, the conversion to 64bit is no big deal. However,
there are the usual problems with some of the latest gadgets (watch out
for those SATA2 controllers and Gigabit ethernet).

> My VMWare stuff is more
> lab than production, but that could change as I seem to have a lot of
> Windows XP machines dedicated to single tasks like Data Transfer
> Stations, Fax Servers, and Remote Desktops which have crummy software
> which require admin rights.

On one side VMware is great for this, especially with snapshots, cloning
etc. On the other hand, the system performance of VMware is pretty
horrible in my experience. Even an old Athlon XP 1700+ or similar can
easily beat VMware running on your new shining toy :-) It might even be
more stable.

So if you can in any way squeeze in a few small low end systems, with
removeable hard disks (or iSCSI) and the usual conveniences, that could
be the better solution. It will also give a better uptime for those
system if they ever become important.

Thomas

Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Thomas

Thomas
Thu Oct 06 16:23:41 CDT 2005

Tim wrote:
> So, dumb question time. Can VMWare run any of the older MAC OS on x86 / x64?

This is going off topic, but anyway: no, VMWare does not support MAC OS,
because it cannot emulate a PowerPC CPU. There is PearPC, which works
very nicely (at least under Linux), but has a slowdown factor of about
10. So you can get the Safari experience, but at the same time it is not
much of an experience :-) I have an old 500MHz G3 iBook, and it is way
faster, and actually still quite useable.

> One last thought: Don't forget that Pacifica and the other Intel
> Virtualisation technologies are coming. I believe some of the announced
> Intel chips already support it. Maybe hold off for a few months or perhaps
> get that single core x64 3200 chip and pray the motherboard will support the
> new CPU's... but then the VMWare upgrade costs may make this totally
> uneconomic.

All true. And with some luck, you will even be able to run Mac OS under
VMWare one day, or VPC for that matter. It is a shame that they did not
choose to go 64bit, but I guess they want to keep it simple for now.

Thomas

Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by Mike

Mike
Mon Oct 10 09:34:31 CDT 2005

On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 13:47:27 +1300, "Tim" <Tim@NoSpam.com> wrote:

>One last thought: Don't forget that Pacifica and the other Intel
>Virtualisation technologies are coming. I believe some of the announced
>Intel chips already support it. Maybe hold off for a few months or perhaps
>get that single core x64 3200 chip and pray the motherboard will support the
>new CPU's... but then the VMWare upgrade costs may make this totally
>uneconomic.
>
>- Tim

Thats a thought too. It doesn't really matter to me sine this is main
for DEV. If it were production it would be more important though. It
may be nice to have that option with the right MB choice though.

Re: Opteron or Athlon 64, Which is better? by David

David
Mon Oct 10 10:50:18 CDT 2005


"Thomas Steffen" <steffen.list.account@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23OWYzTryFHA.2312@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

> Earlier in the thread you asked about Linux drivers. For all drivers
> available in source, the conversion to 64bit is no big deal. However,
> there are the usual problems with some of the latest gadgets (watch out
> for those SATA2 controllers and Gigabit ethernet).

Just a footnote that some distros do support Gigabit ethernet devices,
Mandriva and Linspire have both installed mine with no intervention from me.

--
David R. Norton MVP (shell/user)
d_r_norton@yahoo.com