Directx 10 support

I was watching the tech demos of DX10 and I must say, WOW!. So the
other day, I did a incredibe thing and bought myself the ATI HD 3800
Series card. I'm running under xp64 and upon looking for DX10, I was
surprised to not see it released yet. Now I am seeing games designed
for DX10 so what gives MS? For those without Vista, how do we get
DX10? 32- & 64-Bit users in XP?

James
Sun May 04 09:37:12 PDT 2008

DX10 is Vista+ only.

"-Karl" <dinodod@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a4fea31-d557-4dda-800b-696a90b88cbb@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>I was watching the tech demos of DX10 and I must say, WOW!. So the
> other day, I did a incredibe thing and bought myself the ATI HD 3800
> Series card. I'm running under xp64 and upon looking for DX10, I was
> surprised to not see it released yet. Now I am seeing games designed
> for DX10 so what gives MS? For those without Vista, how do we get
> DX10? 32- & 64-Bit users in XP?
>

-Karl
Mon May 05 16:08:35 PDT 2008

for now, but isn' XP going to have dx10 as well???

XP is STILL supported after all

Zootal
Mon May 05 17:10:02 PDT 2008

It would be a big boon to game devs. How many of us refuse to buy/use Vista?
Game devs spend a fortune on dx10 features, but a big chunk of the market
won't see it if it's Vista only. Making dx10 vista only was not the smartest
thing Microsoft has ever done.

"-Karl" <dinodod@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0f7c9747-cc60-44d7-86a8-617d6c5ee603@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> for now, but isn' XP going to have dx10 as well???
>
> XP is STILL supported after all

Chuck
Mon May 05 17:42:01 PDT 2008

> for now, but isn' XP going to have dx10 as well???
>
> XP is STILL supported after all

From the DirectX FAQ <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb219721.aspx>

Q: Will DirectX 10 be available for Windows XP?

A: No. Windows Vista, which has DirectX 10, includes an updated DirectX
runtime based on the runtime in Windows XP SP2 (DirectX 9.0c) with changes
to work with the new Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM) and the new audio
driver stack, and with other updates in the operating system. In addition to
Direct3D 9, Windows Vista supports two new interfaces when the correct video
hardware and drivers are present: Direct3D9Ex and Direct3D10.

Since these new interfaces rely on the WDDM technology, they will never be
available on earlier versions of Windows. All the other changes made to
DirectX technologies for Windows Vista are also specific to the new version
of Windows. The name DirectX 10 is misleading in that many technologies
shipping in the DirectX SDK (XACT, XINPUT, D3DX) are not encompassed by this
version number. So, referring to the version number of the DirectX runtime
as a whole has lost much of its meaning, even for 9.0c. The DirectX
Diagnostic Tool (DXdiag.exe) on Windows Vista does report DirectX 10, but
this really only refers to Direct3D 10.


Q: What changes were made to the DirectX runtime for Windows Vista?

A: The primary changes were to support the new Windows Display Driver Model.
For details on the new driver model, impacts on Direct3D 9, and on the two
new graphics interfaces, Direct3D 9Ex and Direct3D 10, review Graphics APIs
in Windows Vista. <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb173477.aspx>

DirectSound was updated to expose the capabilities of the new Windows Vista
audio driver stack, which supports multi-channel software buffers. The
Direct3D Retained Mode API was completely removed from Windows Vista.
DirectPlay Voice was also removed, as well as DirectPlay's NAT Helper and
DirectInput's action-mapper UI. Support for the DirectX 7 and DirectX 8
interfaces for Visual Basic 6.0 is not available on Windows Vista.

--
Chuck Walbourn
SDE, XNA Developer Connection

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Zootal
Mon May 05 19:09:25 PDT 2008

So it sounds like the DirectX 10 architecture was designed from the start to
only work with Vista and on. I can understand that - after all, Microsoft
expected everyone to ditch XP and upgrade to Vista. What they did not expect
was the mass rebellion against Vista, and the many people that stick to XP
and refuse to move to Vista. Unanticipated consequences....and now you have
a lot of people out there who don't give a rats arse about DirectX 10,
because none of use are willing to use Vista. This in turn reduces the value
of DirectX 10, and makes it worth less for game devs to include it in their
games.

Maybe it's time for a resurgence of OGL? :-)

>
> From the DirectX FAQ
> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb219721.aspx>
>
> Q: Will DirectX 10 be available for Windows XP?
>
> A: No. Windows Vista, which has DirectX 10, includes an updated DirectX
> runtime based on the runtime in Windows XP SP2 (DirectX 9.0c) with changes
> to work with the new Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM) and the new audio
> driver stack, and with other updates in the operating system. In addition
> to Direct3D 9, Windows Vista supports two new interfaces when the correct
> video hardware and drivers are present: Direct3D9Ex and Direct3D10.
>
> Since these new interfaces rely on the WDDM technology, they will never be
> available on earlier versions of Windows. All the other changes made to
> DirectX technologies for Windows Vista are also specific to the new
> version of Windows. The name DirectX 10 is misleading in that many
> technologies shipping in the DirectX SDK (XACT, XINPUT, D3DX) are not
> encompassed by this version number. So, referring to the version number of
> the DirectX runtime as a whole has lost much of its meaning, even for
> 9.0c. The DirectX Diagnostic Tool (DXdiag.exe) on Windows Vista does
> report DirectX 10, but this really only refers to Direct3D 10.
>
>
> Q: What changes were made to the DirectX runtime for Windows Vista?
>
> A: The primary changes were to support the new Windows Display Driver
> Model. For details on the new driver model, impacts on Direct3D 9, and on
> the two new graphics interfaces, Direct3D 9Ex and Direct3D 10, review
> Graphics APIs in Windows Vista.
> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb173477.aspx>
>
> DirectSound was updated to expose the capabilities of the new Windows
> Vista audio driver stack, which supports multi-channel software buffers.
> The Direct3D Retained Mode API was completely removed from Windows Vista.
> DirectPlay Voice was also removed, as well as DirectPlay's NAT Helper and
> DirectInput's action-mapper UI. Support for the DirectX 7 and DirectX 8
> interfaces for Visual Basic 6.0 is not available on Windows Vista.
>
> --
> Chuck Walbourn
> SDE, XNA Developer Connection
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
>

Jud
Tue May 06 08:19:20 PDT 2008

On Mon, 5 May 2008 19:09:25 -0700, "Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com>
wrote:

>So it sounds like the DirectX 10 architecture was designed from the start to
>only work with Vista and on.

Not so sure about that. I heard some people around me, mention some kind of
alpha/beta(/gamma/delta)-release DX10 for XP32 to be downloadable on the
internet. I don't think any of them has actually tried to install it, as
they are serious gamers, and not willing to screw up their system. But
then, when I told them that they could "Ghost" the system-disk, some eyes
started glimmering. So i'll just sit back and listen to the guinea-pigs
reports.
Anyway, a quick search on "DX10 XP", gave some links:
http://leechermods.blogspot.com/2008/04/directx-10-for-xp-3264bit-rc2-fix-2-new.html
http://www.techmixer.com/download-directx-10-for-windows-xp/

jud

Colin
Tue May 06 10:15:50 PDT 2008

Alky Project. See: http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/

"Jud Hendrix" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:u8t024ld7v0mpasjvem9hubikcqmcdn659@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 5 May 2008 19:09:25 -0700, "Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>>So it sounds like the DirectX 10 architecture was designed from the start
>>to
>>only work with Vista and on.
>
> Not so sure about that. I heard some people around me, mention some kind
> of
> alpha/beta(/gamma/delta)-release DX10 for XP32 to be downloadable on the
> internet. I don't think any of them has actually tried to install it, as
> they are serious gamers, and not willing to screw up their system. But
> then, when I told them that they could "Ghost" the system-disk, some eyes
> started glimmering. So i'll just sit back and listen to the guinea-pigs
> reports.
> Anyway, a quick search on "DX10 XP", gave some links:
> http://leechermods.blogspot.com/2008/04/directx-10-for-xp-3264bit-rc2-fix-2-new.html
> http://www.techmixer.com/download-directx-10-for-windows-xp/
>
> jud

Chuck
Tue May 06 19:11:58 PDT 2008

The photos on that page look supicously like the press mockups rather than
actual in-game rendering. Where are in-game XP screenshots of Bioshock, Lord
of the Rings Online, etc.?

Whatever these guys have done is a hack to get the API to redirect to the
XPDM for things that exist in common with D3D9. Unless they've gotten
NVIDIA, AMD/ATI, and Intel to expose features in their drivers in private
APIs that exposes new D3D10 DDI features, they are basically getting you
nothing but D3D9 using the D3D10 API. The whole point of Direct3D 10 is that
it's a package of new APIs, new HLSL compiler technology, new driver model,
and better integration with the overall system.

There no doubt that there's an immense amount of FUD around Windows Vista.
Most of it isn't technically justified, but then again FUD usually isn't
based on technical merits at all. It's based on perception. Direct3D10,
WDDM, UAC, RDTSC-based kernel scheduling, MMCS, and many other technologies
that debut in Windows Vista are investments Microsoft has made in the
platform. Fixes in common in our current OS that make sense to move
downlevel to Windows XP are done all the time, but getting major new
technology components to work in the older OS is as much work as writing a
new OS in the first place. It requires an entirely new generation of
drivers. These changes need implementation, testing, vetting, and an
infrastructure of third party support. Microsoft has already done all this:
its' called Windows Vista.

Microsoft is on track to stop selling Windows XP at the end of this month,
and this means you won't see Windows XP at the stores or through OEMs.
Microsoft still supports existing customers and system builders can still
get it for another six months. The only version of Windows XP we will
continue to sell is Home Edition through OEMs only for Ultra Low-Cost PCs.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx

--
Chuck Walbourn
SDE, XNA Developer Connection

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Colin
Tue May 06 20:04:35 PDT 2008

Yeah, the DirectX 10 hack is not something I would risk on my systems. Some
third-party search tool is one thing, but they can't have the resources to
back something like DirectX.

"Chuck Walbourn [MSFT]" <chuckw@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:ew4c7e%23rIHA.2292@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> The photos on that page look supicously like the press mockups rather than
> actual in-game rendering. Where are in-game XP screenshots of Bioshock,
> Lord of the Rings Online, etc.?
>
> Whatever these guys have done is a hack to get the API to redirect to the
> XPDM for things that exist in common with D3D9. Unless they've gotten
> NVIDIA, AMD/ATI, and Intel to expose features in their drivers in private
> APIs that exposes new D3D10 DDI features, they are basically getting you
> nothing but D3D9 using the D3D10 API. The whole point of Direct3D 10 is
> that it's a package of new APIs, new HLSL compiler technology, new driver
> model, and better integration with the overall system.
>
> There no doubt that there's an immense amount of FUD around Windows Vista.
> Most of it isn't technically justified, but then again FUD usually isn't
> based on technical merits at all. It's based on perception. Direct3D10,
> WDDM, UAC, RDTSC-based kernel scheduling, MMCS, and many other
> technologies that debut in Windows Vista are investments Microsoft has
> made in the platform. Fixes in common in our current OS that make sense to
> move downlevel to Windows XP are done all the time, but getting major new
> technology components to work in the older OS is as much work as writing a
> new OS in the first place. It requires an entirely new generation of
> drivers. These changes need implementation, testing, vetting, and an
> infrastructure of third party support. Microsoft has already done all
> this: its' called Windows Vista.
>
> Microsoft is on track to stop selling Windows XP at the end of this month,
> and this means you won't see Windows XP at the stores or through OEMs.
> Microsoft still supports existing customers and system builders can still
> get it for another six months. The only version of Windows XP we will
> continue to sell is Home Edition through OEMs only for Ultra Low-Cost PCs.
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx
>
> --
> Chuck Walbourn
> SDE, XNA Developer Connection
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
>
>

Zootal
Tue May 06 20:12:02 PDT 2008

<snip>
> There no doubt that there's an immense amount of FUD around Windows Vista.
> Most of it isn't technically justified, but then again FUD usually isn't
> based on technical merits at all. It's based on perception.
<snip>

Perception is 99% of success, my friend. Without it, you are guaranteed
failure. And right now, Vista doesn't have much of that is good. Microsoft
should have invested more time in learning what people out there in the real
world want, instead of telling us what we want. If they had done so, Vista
would have been the success they thought it was going to be.

James
Wed May 07 15:01:08 PDT 2008

"Perception is 99% of success"? Did you learn that at havard business school
before you went on to found your own fortune 500 company? I kind of doubt
it. MS said before Vista was released that they projected 200 million sales
in 24 months, so far at 14 or so months they're at 140 million, that'll make
it about 240 million at 24 months, way over what they estimated, Vista is
only a failure to professional internet fudders, everyone else is enjoying a
fast, stable, secure OS.

"Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:u%23dK9B$rIHA.4560@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> <snip>
>> There no doubt that there's an immense amount of FUD around Windows
>> Vista. Most of it isn't technically justified, but then again FUD usually
>> isn't based on technical merits at all. It's based on perception.
> <snip>
>
> Perception is 99% of success, my friend. Without it, you are guaranteed
> failure. And right now, Vista doesn't have much of that is good. Microsoft
> should have invested more time in learning what people out there in the
> real world want, instead of telling us what we want. If they had done so,
> Vista would have been the success they thought it was going to be.
>